Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

maryz In the case I posed of a transwoman who was not able to compete fairly at an elite level with men potentially replacing an XX woman in a womens competition who would then not get to compete at elite level, there is only one person disadvantaged either way you rule it.

You seem to be claiming that making the choice in favour of the transwoman somehow disadvantages the whole female population. That would only true if you think that women in the general population (who have no chance of participating at elite level regardless the ruling) can only relate to the success of the real woman and not the transwoman..that girls could only be inspired to take up sport by the real woman and not the trans woman.

And that argument does sound to me to be on the transphobic side.

ohshutup I do hope my previous post qualifies...as it is entirely about the effect of transwomen on both elite female athletes and the general female population as a whole.

What!??

Of course girls will not be 'inspired' by transwomen. They cannot emulate the sporting prowess of someone who has a male body.

This IS NOT TRANSPHOBIC.

The xx line is usually pretty obvious, and the number of intersex people are so few that their participation does not have much effect on general participation in sport and can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

The existence of people born intersex really doesnt have much to do with somebody with a clearly male body deciding to take hormones for a year, competing as a woman and then maybe changing their mind and deciding that they are a man after all.

You genuinely think the statement 'girls cannot be inspired by transwomen' isn't transphobic?

I personally have felt inspired by actual MEN on occasion...let alone transwomen....

You seem to be claiming that making the choice in favour of the transwoman somehow disadvantages the whole female population.

There's no 'seems to be' in my case.
In relation to forcing women to compete against people with male biology, it is extremely damaging to women.

I feel for people who, for whatever reason, feel the need to transition. But it is not right to give them new rights by taking away the rights of others. It's downright wrong and I'm not afraid to say it.

The emperor has no clothes.

Do you think real women with actual brains think 'That Andy Murray isn't inspirational to me...because I couldn't ever look like him or beat him...but Serena Williams is great inspiration because I total could look like her and beat her!'

Most sensible people know they couldn't be either Andy Murray or Serena Williams and are still inspired by them to practice and get better at the sport they enjoy.

That would only true if you think that women in the general population (who have no chance of participating at elite level regardless the ruling) can only relate to the success of the real woman and not the transwoman..that girls could only be inspired to take up sport by the real woman and not the trans woman.

For that matter women can be inspired by men.

I can also be inspired by the under 8 football team - doesn't mean I should playing on their team.

For anyone other than the top 0.00001% of men to be able to compete in most sports you need to create different classes (whether or not anyone else should bother competing is a different issue)

An easy and fair way to do this is sex.

If you believe this is unfair on short women, there is no reason you cannot campaign to have a new "short women" class created.

With respect to trans-women/transmen in the Olympics perhaps it would be more appropriate for them to compete in the para-lympics which is well versed in creating level playing fields for people with disparate abilities?

Most sensible people know they couldn't be either Andy Murray or Serena Williams and are still inspired by them to practice and get better at the sport they enjoy.

But without classification on the basis of sex Serena Williams would not have won any grand slam and would not be making her living playing tennis.

"Do you think real women with actual brains think 'That Andy Murray isn't inspirational to me...because I couldn't ever look like him or beat him...but Serena Williams is great inspiration because I total could look like her and beat her!'

Most sensible people know they couldn't be either Andy Murray or Serena Williams and are still inspired by them to practice and get better at the sport they enjoy."

My daughter certainly admires Jess Ennis HIll and aims to be just like her. She likes Adam Gemili but doesn't want to be like him.

Icebeing you have a very leftfield take on this.

merry well sure.

But people are conflating two points. The very few elite female athletes that will be totally stuffed by this ruling and the rest of the female population that I can't see it actually makes any difference to whatsoever.....unless you think that you actually need to know someone's genital status in order to find their commitment to sport inspirational.

If you couldn't possibly find the achievement of a transwoman anywhere near as inspirational as that of a 'real' woman then tbh, I do think you are a touch transphobic.

You genuinely think the statement 'girls cannot be inspired by transwomen' isn't transphobic

No, it's not. Not when you're talking about sporting achievement.

Girls watch someone growing up through the same struggles of a patriarchal society, of periods and growing boobs, of being overlooked in PE, of being made to do badminton instead of football, of having to take time out to have children, having the same body as them - and still reaching the top levels of sport. THATS what makes them think 'wow, they're just like me. I could do that!'

The same cannot be said of transwomen, who have grown up with male privilege and with male biology, and who are bigger and stronger.

Now, if it is upsetting for a transwoman to hear this, I feel for them. But they can't expect history, biology, physics and women's rights to be ignored or rewritten to save their feelings.

And tbh, most don't. It's the vocal few. Many transwomen genuinely respect women's rights, and see the injustice of this.

briss why wouldn't she want to be like Adam? Is it because muscles are ugly? Not feminine enough?

briss why wouldn't she want to be like Adam? Is it because muscles are ugly? Not feminine enough?

Er, who has said anything remotely like that?

It's because girls find it easier to relate to girls. Same as boys generally follow male athletes.

But nice try.

ohshutup but they don't have the same body as their sporting heros. Just because they have the same sex genes doesn't mean they have the same body.

A transwoman could be just as sound a role model as an XX woman. Transwomen aren't really considered to have had the benefit of male priviledge so much as the absolute disadvantage of being trans....maybe they could be even more of a role model for overcoming the adversity of ones birth than XX women?

I find Ennis-Hill's return to sport after pregnancy inspiring. Cant get that without "knowing someones genital status" to "find their commitment to sport inspiring", can i?

But people are conflating two points. The very few elite female athletes that will be totally stuffed by this ruling and the rest of the female population that I can't see it actually makes any difference to whatsoever.....unless you think that you actually need to know someone's genital status in order to find their commitment to sport inspirational.

I think the thousands of women who take part in running, triathlon etc might disagree with you. Results and qualifying times for certain races are classified according to sex.

Nor would there be a single athlete returning from maternity leave in your dystopian olympics, at all

So am I unique in celebrating and being inspired by the exploits of male athletes then?

I bet there are far more women who could name the mens 100 m olympic champion and not the womens...than could name the womens and not the mens.

but they don't have the same body as their sporting heros. Just because they have the same sex genes doesn't mean they have the same body.

Well it does actually. They both have female bodies.

So am I unique in celebrating and being inspired by the exploits of male athletes then?

Nope.

Some of your other views are pretty unique though.

I bet there are far more women who could name the mens 100 m olympic champion and not the womens...than could name the womens and not the mens.

I suggest you do some reading up on what 'patriarchal society' and 'male privilege' mean.

merry thousands is a few....a tiny tiny few...when people are arguing this ruling somehow disenfranchises 3.5 billion people.

There is definitely a large gap in between even 10 thousand and 3.5 billion.

I do think this ruling is wrong - and I do think it is monstrously unfair on existing pro female athletes.

But I think the cries of this is the end of girls or women taking up sport are totally ridiculous and more than a little transphobic to boot.

ohshutup so in your universe all female bodies are the same and anyone with a female body could win the high jump if they only train hard enough?

I should be more inspired by female athletes because we have more the same size boobs? Oh wait - we really don't! Male and female elite athletes are more similar in body shape to each other than they are to me...