Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

Much easier to form a judgment once the policy has been put into practice and issues will become apparent.

yes transwomen will start winning everything and then it will be too late.

Surely before any ruling, there should be some proper study into the effects upon an athlete's body pre and post hormone treatment/operation. After all, the transgender athletes were presumably competing before and after - if they are still achieving the same times as when they were classed as male, then it is unfair for them to compete with those born female. What would be harder to judge is whether, if times are different, the hormones have the effect on their bodies of rendering them equal with born-females.

I find it amazing that this isnt being talked about.
I've looked online. The only thing I can find is the times has a letter saying its unfair, but I can't access it as I'm not a subscriber. There's another paper with something about the unfair advantage too, which I can't access, and this

Everything else is just about the ruling itself, no discussion on how fair it is.
To be fair I've only had a quick look as I'm dealing with a potty training toddler and a crawling 5 month old, so someone else may be able to find more, but this needs to be talked about!

But Icebeing I don't understand your argument - I think you just belong to a crap sports club. I play squash with dh and the other day whilst we were waiting for our court I looked at the notice board and there's a squash league that includes a few women. It clearly states that the onus is on the members to contact each other about organising matches so the sexes are absolutely not segregated. I don't know anyone on the list so don't know if it works in practice.

In my experience (back in uni days) men were really reluctant to play squash with women because of their fear of being beaten, (in fact I only ever got games with men who were so good that they confidently knew they could beat me so this whole you could play with someone your equal never really happened) hopefully that's changed but I wouldn't count on it - I think a lot of men self-segregate to protect their egos. I think even dh would be less keen to play me if he thought I'd beat him - my satisfaction is from making him run round until he's in a heap on the floor whereas taking points off me is his motivation (even if it kills him in the process).

But all that is irrelevant to this argument really. If we accept that elite sport is good because exercise is good for us and elite sport makes it look fun/can earn you respect/maybe earn you a good living/give you an attractive healthy looking body, having NO women involved and acting as role models is obviously a bad thing for the future of women and their health. I can see no argument for it (and it seems neither can anyone else).

Fascicle

I don't think it's necessary to know anyone's reasoning exactly. It's just a poll on whether Mumsnet should protest the ruling. It's not s questionnaire.

Plenty of people have given their reasoning with their answer though, and anyone is free to do that.

And if course if you abstain you can do it for any reason at all. What would prevent you? Don't be obtuse.

I refuse to believe a year of hormones makes a woman.

I refuse to believe a year of hormones makes a woman.

Agree

thcat I accept that sport is good and that women and girls should participate. I don't accept that elite sport helps with this. The evidence from the London olympics 'legacy' is that elite sport persuades a few people to try something for about a month after the games...then they jack it in till 4 years later. I think the damage done to girls and women every time they are told they can't play on the boys/mens team (when they could transparently make the cut) and have to play in the girls/womens team instead, far FAR outweights the negative impact there would be from all sports being mixed at the outset due to the loss of a few high profile elite female athletes.

I don't do sport because I was inspired by a role model at the olympics...and I don't think the majority of other women are doing it for that reason either. The majority of girls aren't doing sport because they wan't to be like Jess Ennis-hill (which is good because almost none of them ever could be) they are doing it because they find it fun. Being told you can't play with the boys, even though you know you are good enough, just because you have girl cooties will destroy that fun far more rapidly than not seeing Jess on TV for a couple of hours a year.

It would be ideal if we could have truly desegregated sports all the way up to but not including elite - but that seems even harder to organize.

As for happening to go to a crap club, I have tried 3 different clubs in my local area and they ALL behave in this way. In every single club I have been denied the chance to play interesting challenging games because of my gender alone. I am actually thinking of taking up squash instead because of the fact that squash ladders do genuinely seem to work in a gender neutral way!

They will be discussing the on Radio 4 today - The World at One.

merrymouse thanks - that is exactly where I was coming from, though god know you are the only one who gets it! Right or wrong it is worth at least having a conversation about the point and general effects of having woman only categories. It gets discussed in other fields all the time...should there be a woman's only prize for literature etc...does it raise the profile of female writers or does it make it look like we couldn't make it on our own without the leg up?

Should female to male trans be stopped from competing in male sports?

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but it's just been announced on radio 4 that this will feature in the World at One news programme today if anyone is interested in listening.

Apologies Humphrey, I see you have mentioned it already

It's not really an issue. Few, if any will want to as they'll be at such a disadvantage they'd never realistically reach the Olympics anyway.

This is about to be discussed on R4.

Venus
I don't think it's necessary to know anyone's reasoning exactly. It's just a poll on whether Mumsnet should protest the ruling. It's not s questionnaire.

Reasoning is pretty essential. I wouldn't expect MN to agree to take up a cause based on strength of feeling, without knowing why people voted as they did. Reasoning has a bearing on the campaign's objectives and chances of success. In this case, is the aim to stop transwomen from competing in women's events altogether, or is it to accepting that they can compete, but applying alternative criteria to create fair competition? The two options are very different.

And if course if you abstain you can do it for any reason at all.

I agree. I was pointing out that the 'for any reason' wording was yours, rather than part of the 'abstain' option in the poll. It's a minor point that may/may not make a difference to interpretation.

Don't be obtuse.

I wasn't. Stick to the arguments, please.

But Icebeing, it's not just about athletics. I've always thought the legacy bit of London 2012 was about having fantastic sports facilities and improved coaching facilities for those who do show talent when young. Surely the authorities seriously never expected 40 somethings to suddenly start taking up discus throwing or running 100m? The Olympics did also include sports such as football (as I recall the Millenium Stadium sold out for women's matches) which I would argue does have relevance for young girls. The BBC also had good coverage of the Women's world cup. For girls who like playing football it must be lovely to see they're not unusual.

However if Iran are allowed to field a women's football team that is mostly men, the take home message will be, you need to have a male body to play football at any kind of serious level.

And I repeat, you may find it's not the 'system' that imposes segregation on any sport, it may be insecure men that do it.

thecat I don't think they showed much legacy action in any area did they? It wasn't just athletics that bombed. It think if I was a 6 yo girl interested in playing football it would be far more encouraging if I could play on the same team with the other interested kids than being told I had to play on a separate team because it is simply assumed I wouldn't be good enough to play with the boys? Nobody for one second imagines that womens football is as high profile or elite as mens. You don't turn on the TV and see womens football. The fact it exists just highlights the fact that women don't really play football much....meanwhile any girl actually interested in playing is told to join the 'other' team....

Erm my dd has played on a mixed football team for the last 4 years

Icebeing your arguments against women's sport are weird.

Nobody for one second imagines that womens football is as high profile or elite as mens. You don't turn on the TV and see womens football. The fact it exists just highlights the fact that women don't really play football much....meanwhile any girl actually interested in playing is told to join the 'other' team....

Yes you can play women's football when 12 or so. Dd looking forward to it. She doesn't think of it as 'other'

Are you a man?

Maryz
In my research I've come across a few female to male transmen. I take off my hat to the couple who have attempted to compete with men - there is one ultra-biathlete who seems to be on the verge of getting there.

Chris Mosier? I read about him the other day. Apparently he was involved in challenging the IOC's previous policy on transgender athletes. He's supposed to be competing in the Duathlon World Championships this year. It looks like he was somewhat restricted previously in his eligibility for certain events because he has been taking hormone treatment but has not had surgery. Anyway, interesting to know that an older trans male athlete is able to compete at a top level with other males, taking hormone treatment at a relatively late stage (over 30).