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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 08:30

I would not be offended by trans people and their allies using real as a modifier for woman, I think they would be offended by us using it though.

ThatIsNachoCheese · 18/11/2015 08:35

Oh yes please could there be a topic, so I can hide the bloody thing and don't have to sit, open mouthed, at all the utter bullshit?

I take the opinion to live and let live. Transgender people certainly aren't hurting me. I don't want to be referred to as a Cis woman, but I've only ever seen it on those bloody threads and I'm quite big enough to report and tell people I'm not a Cis woman, just a woman thank you.

CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 09:10

"I think it's important to have these conversations on parts of the boards where people who aren't aware of the issues might actually see it."

I agree. Most of us started out with live-and-let-live, poor-dears-let-them-say-what-they-want views on this topic, before we realised the consequences of allowing the redefinition and reduction to absurdity of the word 'woman' to include adult human males who 'feel like' women.

These threads need to be on public areas of MN with high traffic such as AIBU and Chat because they serve a purpose: On every trans thread, several MNers become aware of the issues and the dangers of letting transactivists continue to set the agenda and shape policy. It is important that we continue to raise awareness on this subject, especially since MN is one of a vanishingly small number of places left on the internet where such concerns can be voiced without being deleted for 'transphobia'.

MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 09:28

On every trans thread, several MNers become aware of the issues and the dangers of letting transactivists continue to set the agenda and shape policy. It is important that we continue to raise awareness on this subject, especially since MN is one of a vanishingly small number of places left on the internet where such concerns can be voiced without being deleted for 'transphobia'.

One of these was me. I always thought I was a LibFem, in the main. I'm in my 60s now and had been happy to pass the baton on to the next generation after my activism in the 60s and 70s. The fight for Women's Liberation (as I once called it) is not yet won and I will yield not one inch to any other group until it is. I was slumbering but now I'm awake. And I'm angry.

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 09:30

They don't serve a purpose when most a lot of posters see a trans thread title roll their eyes because it's like Groundhog Day and hide the thread straight away.

Not everyone wants or need their awareness raised.

BeyondThirty · 18/11/2015 09:36

Despite the suggestion for two boards being mine, i agree with queen too. I just meant that if one trans topic were created, it couldnt really contain all of the massively contradicting threads by both pro and anti 'gender-is-a-real-thing' without turning into a massive bunfight

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 09:40

It's like anything else on Chat or AIBU - if you don't want to read it don't click on it or hide it.

CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 09:46

Sparkling - I can only assume that you have x-posted with Mythical, whose post is evidence that you are wrong.

BeyondThirty · 18/11/2015 09:52

Mn (and facebook!) need to invent a 'hide all threads containing x' function, so any posters who are trans-ed out can hide all threads containing that word. (And on facebook i can then hide all 'news' posts containing the word 'kardashian')

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 09:57

That's one person Cote.

I am thinking there are probably also some who see a trans thread title and maybe think 'ooh I could learn something here' then start reading and the bunfight ensues and they just think Hmm.

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeG0es · 18/11/2015 10:03

*"I think it's important to have these conversations on parts of the boards where people who aren't aware of the issues might actually see it."

While I agree with Cote on this point I don't think it precludes the use of a separate topic as the topic would appear in Most Active by default. People are unlikely to seek out and hide the topic unless they have read some of the threads. If they have done that they may be either drawn to engage or decide it's not for them, in which case having thread after thread appear in front if them is unlikely to change their mind.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 10:04

We generally get several people on each thread saying that they were always pro-trans without really thinking through the ramifications but have had their eyes opened.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 10:06

Not everyone uses most active though. I look at Feminism Chat, Chat and AIBU with the occasional foray into The Litter Tray, Telly Addicts, Site Stuff and Food.

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeG0es · 18/11/2015 10:08

And I also agree with Sparkling that the bunfights are tedious. I have learnt a lot from trans threads on MN but the speed and ferocity of them dramatically dilutes their effectiveness.

Edeline85 · 18/11/2015 10:14

On every trans thread, several MNers become aware of the issues and the dangers of letting transactivists continue to set the agenda and shape policy. It is important that we continue to raise awareness on this subject, especially since MN is one of a vanishingly small number of places left on the internet where such concerns can be voiced without being deleted for 'trans phobia'

Before these threads started, I was also of the poor-dears-live-and-let-live-aren't-terfs-terrible-people persuasion. But seeing other women ask polite, reasonable and logical questions criticising the accepted trans narrative really made me question what my opinions actually were, and why I held them.

I'm sorry that some posters feel like the trans debate has taken over MN of late, but is is an important debate to be had, and there are increasingly few public spaces that allow even a hint of gender critical discussion. I am grateful to MN for allowing the debate from both sides, and grateful to the MN posters who made me feel confident enough to examine my own attitudes critically.

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeG0es · 18/11/2015 10:57

QueenStromba I don't think the fact that some individuals only look in Chat, AIBU and a few selected topics means that anything of importance needs to go in Chat and AIBU. Chat to me means lightweight conversation about trivial matters. AIBU means the threads tend to get very heated, rather than sensible debate.

I rarely go to specific boards, day to day I use TIO and Most Active because I am open to reading threads on most subjects and that's the best way to stumble on them.

Fissues · 18/11/2015 11:08

I've also appreciated the debate on trans issues. Used to read an American feminist site but started questioning the disconnect between rejecting gender and transgenderism but sadly, anyone who tried to start a discussion was called a TERF. I've found mn really valuable as a place to discuss these issues.

CrayonShavings · 18/11/2015 11:21

I'd like to add my name to the list of MNers who've had their consciousness well and truly raised by the intelligent gender-critical posters on here.

There is a whole damn internet full of places where no-one will question trans orthodoxy, and I am grateful to have this oasis of sense and discussion.

The GRC was brought in without any of us noticing, without any women being asked, without our consent.

It feels like we are teetering on the edge of losing many of our rights because we are shouted down and shamed if we question this, and the mainstream press disingenuously tows the trans line.

The WE Party thread was so hugely disappointing. It's clear to me that it's up to ordinary women to speak up about this, and change minds. It's just a shame we have to do this anonymously at the moment, for fear of death threats and public shaming. Not all of us are as brave as Germaine Greer.

HoneyDragon · 18/11/2015 11:43

I don't mind sharing any space on the Internet, but there are many important issues affecting users of the site. And when main forums like chat/AIBU have half a dozen threads of pretty much the same subject it is frustrating when it's only done because one poster is cross they aren't dominant with their viewpoint, on a thread so start a new one.

It is this that frustrates me, the boards aren't dominated by a debate, or a want to educate, but also by a desire to spread/further a bunfight/grudge. It's not me disrespecting the issues, but becoming tired of what is drum banging.

Usually on Mnet I remind myself that this will pass, when a contentious subject arises.

But in this case, I just wish the debate could be kept in a topic to keep it civilised and make moderation easier for MNHQ because I do recognise its importance to all concerned and things should be freely discussed.

WowOwl · 18/11/2015 11:44

I'm also one of the posters who's had their eyes opened by the threads on MN about this subject. I'm a long time lurker and haven't posted on any of the threads before, but I felt I should raise my hand in agreement with the recent litany of threads having had a positive result.

I was probably in the live and let live camp, and to a certain extent I still am. I'll use whatever pronouns people want, and I think trans people should be able to go about their lives without fear of discrimination etc, in just the same way I think everyone should be able to. However, I draw the line at transwomen being women in the same way a biological woman is. I'm not happy at the prospect of penis owning people being in female only spaces etc. and I am not a cis-woman, the term woman does me just fine.

I can't remember if it was on this thread or one of the others but someone wondered if part of the issue with this topic is that younger women don't see themselves as feminists because they're largely unaffected by a misogynistic society. I'm young enough to probably have been counted in that camp until recently. I think it is a huge part of the reason why all this has seemingly crept up on everyone. Feminism has fallen out of favour and because for the majority of young women it doesn't seem needed, they're not seeking out this information. I happened upon these threads by accident and was amazed to discover that by virtue of holding the opinions above I'm apparently a rad-fem, and even more amusingly, so is DH. I wonder how many apparently non-feminist women are in fact rad-fems as well?!

VashtaNerada · 18/11/2015 12:27

And I'd like to add my name to the list of trans-supporting feminists on MN who's had my eyes opened to how much opposition trans people can face from some elements of the feminist movement. Lots of strong opinions on both sides here, I just hope we can debate the issues intelligently without it getting nasty. We have such big battles to face as feminists, let's pick our enemies carefully and not a group who also suffer from the patriarchy.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 18/11/2015 12:31

We have such big battles to face as feminists

Well, quite. FGM? But oh no - that's transphobic! Abortion? But what about the men who have abortions? Maternity? But that excludes the women who can't have babies purely because they have penises rather than vaginas. Rape? But women with penises get raped too!

The 'big battles' are being actively occluded by this very issue.

VashtaNerada · 18/11/2015 12:54

No they're not Seek. I know there's some arseholes in the trans movement along with every other movement but I personally don't know anyone trans who would disagree that those issues need to be tackled. I feel there is a huge straw man argument on MN about what trans people are supposed to have said but it's all based around a couple of idiots. Most trans people and trans activists of course recognise the need for feminism and a focus on those issues.

MaudGonneMad · 18/11/2015 13:01

I feel there is a huge straw man argument on MN about what trans people are supposed to have said but it's all based around a couple of idiots.

Twitter is awash with it. I and many other women I know are afraid to say what we really think in public, for fear of getting vile abuse. The very few conversations I have seen on Facebook about this have been dominated by men aggressively mansplaining womanhood to the couple of women who dared to question the trans orthodoxy. These are men who have no skin in the game, and are just seizing on an opportunity to display their 'progressive' credentials.

Women are being silenced all over the internet, either through vile abuse or, equally corrosively, the fear of vile abuse.

In the wake of that silencing, the extremist transactivist voices get louder and louder and drown everything else out.

VashtaNerada · 18/11/2015 13:09

Maud - I haven't personally seen that on Twitter or Facebook although I have seen some vile transphobic abuse. I do believe what you're saying, I just haven't come across it personally. I am aware of the no-platforming issue which I don't agree with, I think we need to have the debate.

As someone with many trans friends who knows all about the bullying and harassment they suffer, I'm just saying that there are many, many people who are trans activists but would never minimise issues such as FGM or send someone death threats. For those of us just getting on with our lives, the angry tone on MN is quite shocking (but your post has helped me understand it a bit). We all need to remain civil and remember that the bullies out there don't give a shit if a woman is trans or not, they hate us all the same.

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