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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
MistressMerryWeather · 17/11/2015 23:08

Ooooh! When did we get Chocolate?

OneMoreCasualty · 17/11/2015 23:15

Whatttttt!

Chocolate
OneMoreCasualty · 17/11/2015 23:15

Yay!

MistressMerryWeather · 17/11/2015 23:22

I haven't had a Dairy Milk in years but I sort of need one right now...

I hope MN is getting paid for the advertising.

Chocolate Chocolate Chocolate

NotRightNowDear · 17/11/2015 23:32

A separate topic is needed. It's ridiculous on the boards at the moment. Sick of it all.

CoteDAzur · 17/11/2015 23:48

MNHQ - Would it be possible to sticky somewhere the definition of the word 'female' for those of us who still don't get what it means? Please?

So many of these arguments would end if only some people actually knew the meaning of the word 'female'.

Female: Of the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes (sperm) .

DixieNormas · 18/11/2015 00:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BadlyBehavedShoppingTrolley · 18/11/2015 04:05

It can be a bit like the Berlin Wall or the Partition in India or North and South Korea all over again, and it will be a relief quite frankly. We can FINALLY stop having half of Mumsnet hijacked by the Transgender Debate which is getting tedious and going round in circles.

See what I mean? It's happening again! So predictable and so boring.

ragged · 18/11/2015 04:54

I'd like new topic (so I can hide it).
Bad enough I have to listen to DD carry on at home about transgender stuff.

RomiiRoo · 18/11/2015 06:12

Dixie, I think it does matter when it consumes intellectual and debating space that previously would have addressed issues that affect women IRL like erosion of abortion rights, poverty having a disproportionate effect on women (and children, as women still the main caters), closure of women's refugees, rape culture etc - and that is just in this country, before we get to developing world issues.

Not saying that trans*people do not have valid concerns but they are not the same concerns as historically have disadvantaged many women and continue to disadvantage many women.

And when you have young people going overseas to have surgery to be accepted as a woman rather than just who they are, whoever that is, then actually it is a real world problem. It is capitalism gone mad.

I actually don't want to perpetuate the taking over of women's space to discuss trans issues - but I am trying to understand from a generational viewpoint what is going on here.

I agree a separate topic for trans issues and support (two separate topics, if needs be). Then if I want to keep up with trans* issues, I can, and feminism can discuss feminist issues, and the rest of the board can discuss parenting issues, news, whether someone's husband's granny is BU.

Multi, interesting points. I actually have a different experience which is that the young women I teach do still see gender discrimination at work, or they see equality such as it is as something precarious.

CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 06:34

"Oh it doesn't matter" is exactly how we ended up in this mess where we can no longer discuss or even define issues that affect us such as menstruation and childbirth, and no longer have the right to sex-segregated spaces.

These are real problems threatening the well-being of real women in the real world.

VashtaNerada · 18/11/2015 06:53

This is probably the most sensible thing I've seen so far:

I would say that , if we're creating topics, it would surely make sense to have two - a gender critical trans theory topic and a pro-trans/support topic. So long as no-one crosses the line in the sand, everyone can be

I'd love a space (even just a thread) for feminists who are trans or trans allies to discuss links between the two movements and how we can support each other but don't feel that's possible at the moment.

The risk with separate areas of course is that we don't challenge each other, and it's important in any healthy debate that we do, but I'd love to be able to discuss support for trans people without it getting into a debate on cis/changing rooms/trans children/Jack Monroe/Caitlyn Jenner/ trans people who are also abusers etc. Not all LGBT people are parents or children so there doesn't seem to be a space for just normal supportive conversations about trans people's everyday lives.

MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 06:54

^

This is so true.

MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 06:55

My last post refers to cote's post.

DixieNormas · 18/11/2015 07:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BrendaandEddie · 18/11/2015 07:39

this is typical mumsnet lifecycle.
Something becomes more prominent in news

everyone talks about it.
People get the hump.
they demand a topic
Much deliberation
they get a topic
they still put everything in CHAT or AIBU

Same old #oldtimer

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 07:45

I'm a regular on these threads but I wouldn't use a trans topic as I think it's important to have these conversations on parts of the boards where people who aren't aware of the issues might actually see it. Awareness raising is very important as most people have no idea how much of a threat transgenderism is to women's rights.

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 07:47

Hide Thread is a great feature.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 07:49

Yep, you can mostly tell the ones that are going to be about trans by the thread title - takes seconds to click on it and hide it if you never want to see it again.

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark · 18/11/2015 07:53

The problem is QueenStromba, that every single thread about the issues gets me-railed. And the sheer amount of threads recently (and I don't doubt for a second that a) lots of them are by the same person b) many are being started to take the piss out of what has frankly become a totally disproportionate amount of threads and MN energy) are having the opposite effect of what the people starting them want.

I started off with a disinterested empathy. My stance now couldn't be further from that.

MN risks becoming a target for anti-trans stuff at worst, and at best an utter laughing stock.

OneMoreCasualty · 18/11/2015 08:00

In what way a target, Dark?

Ubik1 · 18/11/2015 08:01

Apparently you can be 'Demi-gender' now.
Sometime you are a man (at work for example) other times you are a woman.

Keeps everyone on their toes...

Sparklingbrook · 18/11/2015 08:08

You see from the title that it's about trans and you just know how it's going to go because they always end up the same. Having them not appear in Active at all because you have the topic hidden would be good.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 08:10

That's just having your cake and eating it too. Getting taken seriously at work (i.e. perceived to be a man) and getting to wear pretty dresses at the weekend. I find it highly insulting that we are expected to view these people as women and use female pronouns.

IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou · 18/11/2015 08:27

Maybe if instead of "Cis" they used "Real" people wouldn't be offended?

Or we could refer to people as "Caitlin Jenner (XY)" or "the penis equipped woman, Caitlin Jenner?

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