Is Mumsnet HQ evil or not very bright.

[TiggyD]

As some of you may already know you're allowed to call transgendered women "men in dresses" and refer to them as "he" and "him.

"So some men dressing as women..." as one posted said in relation to trans women got the reply from RebeccaMN:

We agree that this post is in poor taste but we don't tend to delete on those grounds because it would be really hard to know where to draw the line.
The truth is, we don't think we should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive and what they shouldn't. In these instances, it's very rare that a tasteless comment is left unchallenged, and we would highly recommend that you put forward your point of view on the thread.

Well firstly I think Mumsnet should draw the line at discrimination of a protected minority group.

Secondly, if MN don't think they should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive, maybe they should ask a representative from a human rights or anti discrimination group? Misgendering is always wrong.

Thirdly, is it rare an tasteless comment is unchallenged? Now the trans people on Mumsnet refuse to post on trans related threads who the hell is going to challenge them?

Fourthly, that post was unchallenged. Have a look at the thread.

Fifthly, "tasteless"? "TASTELESS"?! WTF? Tofu is tasteless. Would MNHQ describe calling people spastics or coons or faggots as tasteless? Misgendering is a put-down towards an entire minority. Dismissed as tasteless.

A quick look at a quote about the 2010 equality act:
"harassment - unwanted behaviour linked to a protected characteristic that violates someone’s dignity or creates an offensive environment for them".

Is there harassment in trans related threads on here? Is the dignity of all transwomen violated by referring to them all as men in dresses? Bleedingly obviously yes. Does it create an offensive environment for them? How the hell could it not? Does Mumsnet do anything to stop it? No.

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It all makes me wonder if the people of MNHQ are deliberately letting all this unkindness and discrimination and harassment go on because they evil, or because they don't know any better.
I think I have it. I reckon it's like the Ricky Gervais thing where he started doing "Mong" faces. All kinds of people told him it was offensive and an unkind name for people with Downs Syndrome but he refused to accept it. I think he thought that as he believed himself to be a good person, and he used the word mong, that mong had to be an acceptable word because he was good. I think it must be like that in MNHQ. They believe themselves to be good people and when they allow people to call transwomen men on thier site it's fine because their belief in themselves being good trumps all the views of the victims.

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One question for MNHQ that I alluded to earlier. Have you ever asked any kind of trans, human rights, or anti-discrimination group about how to treat trans people?

Have you?

Ever?

To be fair, it's all public record. Why wouldn't you want anyone to know your old username when you've already referred to it? You said "If you read past threads, you will see my whole life on there with loads of information and questions answered." Then you are objecting to someone linking to your past thread

Ego you can't refer people to old threads, mention your previous username then get upset when someone does a search of your old name and links an old thread for reference

Of course this is an important topic to you. As it is to a lot of the women posting on this and other threads.

You don't need to be the poster child for Trans issues if it has a negative impact on you.

It is good to have the different perspective but not at the expense of your mental health or your real life.

I am sure MNHQ would be very considerate towards a request to have all your previous posts deleted. They do recognise that a gradual build up of Outy stuff sometimes leads to the wish to have it pulled. It would probably not be wise to then refer back to that persona on Trans threads as that would defeat the object and not be fair if people wished to counteract your perception of what has gone on before.

If 'some of the stuff' is that a biological male can become a biological female then it's not a debate you are ever going to win. Not a personal attack any more than an atheist saying there is no God.

What did you think of the responses on the thread linked to? Were they helpful at the time?
Why get so bogged down in an argument about biology if you know there is an opposing view that isn't going to change. You seem to confuse that opposing view with abuse. That's your problem, not mine, as it isn't intended to be personal. I would not March up to you in the street and go on about it, but if asked, as you have asked, I will give my answer.

I can understand the difficulty drawing the line between sharing and oversharing.

I think though that it is a bit frustrating trying to deal with someone who is having this difficulty with boundaries.

There's no obligation to share details about your life. But it is your responsibility to sort your own boundaries out or it makes people have to tiptoe around you - tell us what is Ok and what isn't but don't change your mind all the time, that's not fair.

Do you think it is easy to post about things that will get you called a bigot or hateful? What about the person on another thread who asked me a direct question then when I answered it they said they wished my breasts would fall off and my vagina would rot? Does that make it easy to post on here?

*My last post was an error, I started to post using your old name then realised after the post and tried to erase it and put your new one. Accidentally put both.

This is the lion's den. There are vocal posters on here who don't agree with what I say - and there is no fucking way I am going to open up on here with my views on what it is to be trans when I will get a whole load of aggro and abuse from people.It's so easy to post and say stuff when most of the people agree with you. I am not brave enough to post my views on the internet when I will get attacked /hassled / challenged about stuff that is personal to me.I am sure that if you had a view on something incredibly personal and you knew that many people on that forum did not agree with you - that you would think twice before posting.I am not brave enough.

Absolutely not. You're manipulative. If you were "scared" of us you wouldn't be here asking us if you were male. You are expecting that the majority of posters will feel sympathy for you because are showing yourself to be sad, and women are socialized to placate people. The Lion's Den is the real world where women are ripped to shreds (even by so called feminists) for not buying o the trans agenda. Where speakers that I want to see are no platformed and conferences I want to attend have to hide their premises because of trans activists.

Ok, happy to not talk about 'you', but maybe don't talk about 'you' either then ask us to comment on your gender?

that might avoid it.

SophiesDog this blog might be useful transgenderreality.com

That's absolutely fine, Ego. It seemed the perfect example of how Trans women are treated in here, before all the encroachment on the rights of biological women gets involved.
I it relevant to this thread, where the central premise is that a site's owners and employees act maliciously or lack intelligence. No worries, as I said previously there are many more threads like that one that do not involve you.

*" Egosumquisum Sat 25-Jul-15 21:08:40

TBH - what people say on here doesn't affect me at all. It's happened so many times that I'm immune to it.

You are words on a screen."*

Good, so you won't be hurt by any of these posts and you won't feel the need to avoid the thread.

Possibly MNHQ feel they have addressed the issues previously in all the other threads. I would agree they have.

Morning, everyone. We've had lots of communication from many of you about this thread, both reports and direct emails. We're sorry we aren't able to keep on top of them all - we've been a bit inundated. We run a skeleton staff on weekends and we don't feel we have the time and resources to give this thread and the issues raised by it adequate consideration today.

We're going to suspend this thread just for now while we have a good read and try to catch up on all the reports. We'll have a thorough look at it again when the whole team is back in the office.

Tiggy - apologies we haven't been able to reply to all your points raised individually on this thread and in your emails. We will get onto this and get a full response to you as soon as we are able. Thanks everyone, for bearing with us.

Well I waited and got the response that I've bolded in my reply to them I made about a week ago. They didn't respond.

Interesting to note that at no point have they ever said there is no transphobia on their site. Hmm.

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Hello MNHQ,

I'd like to point out that the thread I started was mostly due to there seemingly being no way to have a conversation with you at HQ. Every critical post is replied to with a bland bullshit corporate reply where the aim is to stop the conversation as quickly as possible without being held liable for any of your policies or actions. If you won't open the door for a chat, the only option is to stand in the street and shout.

Your response: You didn't answer my question about harassment. You do allow it, it has lead to trans people not wanting to post, that is discrimination against a protected characteristic. That's why you didn't answer that question. You know you're in the wrong.

On reflection we've deleted the post you reported. Sorry for not doing that sooner, these issues are not uncomplicated and sometimes it take a while particularly when there's a lot of people with very strong views arguing the toss.
Saying transwomen are men is transphobic. A rule that can be expressed in 6 words is not hard to understand. People saying what they believe is totally different. People have said they think transwomen are men, fine. It's not expressed as a fact.

In answer to the other points you raised I'm happy to say we've had no complaints at MNHQ from Trans staff and that we are committed to principles of equality and diversity.
Glad to hear it, but that wasn't my question was it? I asked if your office policies were the same as your posting policies. In other words, do you let staff refer to trans members of staff by the wrong pronouns? You answered a question I didn't ask. Why? We both know why don't we? If a member of staff said the things that get said on the forums to a trans member of staff you would have to take action against them or you'll get your bum sued off. You know you're in the wrong.

We do also believe in the power of conversation, debate and freedom of speech and we find that many of the trickiest moderation decisions come down to trying to balance these aims. We are human and therefore liable to err but we do the best we can.
Agreed.

We have indeed worked with Stonewall closely in the past and will certainly consider seeking their advice on trans issues going forward. Thanks for the suggestion.
Stonewall? THE Stonewall? The Stonewall that until lately didn't include the 'T' in LGBT? The Stonewall that used transphobic words in their literature and tried to give awards to transphobic writers that lead to transpeople condemning them and picketing their awards night? Twice? That Stonewall? You might want to check with them again now they've become less transphobic themselves.

As you probably know Mumsnet's aim is to make parents' lives easier by pooling and sharing advice and support. We ask members to be respectful of each other's opinions even if they don't agree with them. Looking at your recent posting and reporting history we are wondering if this is the site for you? It doesn't seem to be the case that you are getting anything other than frustration from your participation and that the manner of your participation is causing endless confrontation.
You usually say people should address the issues on the threads rather. You have been told before by several people than any attempts to do so will guarantee a massive bun-fight which degenerates into all the usual arguments and having to justify the rights of trans people which are law. And now you're complaining that I'm addressing it? You think the way to stop the transphobia on this site is to stop the victims of it from complaining about it? That's bad Mumsnet.

And I read more than I post you know. The camping section has been very handy in particular.

Given our aim to make parents' lives easier, we wonder whether it might be time to have a break from the site, so you might come back in a better frame of mind?
You think the way to stop the transphobia on this site is to tell the victims to go away? That's very, very bad Mumsnet.

Please talk to the new Stonewall, who now say they care about trans matters, or a trans group would be even better. Show them this email.

Regards,
Tiggy.

And please respond to this email too.