Is Mumsnet HQ evil or not very bright.

[TiggyD]

As some of you may already know you're allowed to call transgendered women "men in dresses" and refer to them as "he" and "him.

"So some men dressing as women..." as one posted said in relation to trans women got the reply from RebeccaMN:

We agree that this post is in poor taste but we don't tend to delete on those grounds because it would be really hard to know where to draw the line.
The truth is, we don't think we should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive and what they shouldn't. In these instances, it's very rare that a tasteless comment is left unchallenged, and we would highly recommend that you put forward your point of view on the thread.

Well firstly I think Mumsnet should draw the line at discrimination of a protected minority group.

Secondly, if MN don't think they should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive, maybe they should ask a representative from a human rights or anti discrimination group? Misgendering is always wrong.

Thirdly, is it rare an tasteless comment is unchallenged? Now the trans people on Mumsnet refuse to post on trans related threads who the hell is going to challenge them?

Fourthly, that post was unchallenged. Have a look at the thread.

Fifthly, "tasteless"? "TASTELESS"?! WTF? Tofu is tasteless. Would MNHQ describe calling people spastics or coons or faggots as tasteless? Misgendering is a put-down towards an entire minority. Dismissed as tasteless.

A quick look at a quote about the 2010 equality act:
"harassment - unwanted behaviour linked to a protected characteristic that violates someone’s dignity or creates an offensive environment for them".

Is there harassment in trans related threads on here? Is the dignity of all transwomen violated by referring to them all as men in dresses? Bleedingly obviously yes. Does it create an offensive environment for them? How the hell could it not? Does Mumsnet do anything to stop it? No.

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It all makes me wonder if the people of MNHQ are deliberately letting all this unkindness and discrimination and harassment go on because they evil, or because they don't know any better.
I think I have it. I reckon it's like the Ricky Gervais thing where he started doing "Mong" faces. All kinds of people told him it was offensive and an unkind name for people with Downs Syndrome but he refused to accept it. I think he thought that as he believed himself to be a good person, and he used the word mong, that mong had to be an acceptable word because he was good. I think it must be like that in MNHQ. They believe themselves to be good people and when they allow people to call transwomen men on thier site it's fine because their belief in themselves being good trumps all the views of the victims.

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One question for MNHQ that I alluded to earlier. Have you ever asked any kind of trans, human rights, or anti-discrimination group about how to treat trans people?

Have you?

Ever?

MRAs are nothing like gender critical women. They believe that they are superior to women. I don't see women on here believing that they are in anyway superior to transwomen. MRA beliefs are even more offensive because they come from the group that historically oppress women. Again, not something that women have a history of against transwomen.

A woman trying to find her way through trans issues and the impact on her life and who inadvertently misgenders or makes a transphobic comment is not the equivalent of an MRA. She has no power or history or oppression over a transwomen. She is genuinely at risk of having her rights eroded and is entitled to question why that is.

I am sick of women being accused of being bigoted or transphobic simply for having the audacity to voice their concerns. I am sick of seeing reasonable posters doubt themselves and having their integrity called into question. We're being asked to listen, to moderate our language and amend our beliefs. But the trans community doesn't appear to want to listen to women. A lot of women are feeling exposed and confused and those genuine concerns are being shouted down as bigotry and hatred.

How on earth is MNHQ meant to police all of that when there is conflict and division not just between the two groups but within them ?

Maybe people choose to post more frequently on this topic on MN because there are vanishingly few feminist spaces on the internet that don't subscribe to the 'discussing periods is transphobic' and 'die in a fire/drink bleach' rhetoric.

Anyway, I see Cote, Flora, Hermione, Queen Stromba and others are on here. Unusual to see some of them outside of FWR.

Almost like the subject might be important to them.

am I male?
Yes, you have a penis. You are a male. Otherwise what is a male? If you want to not be called a man or for me to use 'she' fine. What difference to me is it. But if you are asking honestly are you a male. Of course you are.

Really flora? Gosh, that's an example of a call I'd disagree with. Feels a bit "thought police" to say we are not allowed to question why one is celebrated and one vilified.

Am I male?

You are biologically male, yes.

"Am I male?"

Yes, you are. I'm truly sorry that you find this answer upsetting but you did ask and this is the only biologically correct answer you are ever going to get.

Male: The sex that produces sperm with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.

Female: The sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.

What HRT is doing is making you a more feminine version of yourself - making your skin softer, growing you a set of breasts, etc. You are looking more female than you would normally look. It is not actually and magically making you female.

I would have agreed with that a year or two ago, Buffy. Not anymore as a lot of those views have now become mainstream.

Ego, can you tell me what your definition of a biological female is?

What do you think a person who has breasts to feed young and a vagina to bear young is? Do you have a word for it? Because traditionally that is what female has meant. Do you really believe scientist when discussing female are actually saying humans who 'feel like a woman'?

I don't know why you do this to yourself, Ego. You continually provoke posters into making comments that you find hurtful and offensive about you personally.

If the vast majority of posters refer to you as she, what does it matter what their internal beliefs are ? Why push them to state them on here ?

"I see Cote, Flora, Hermione, Queen Stromba and others are on here. Unusual to see some of them outside of FWR."

I don't often post on FWR so not sure what your point was there. Congratulations, you can recognise nicknames.

So can we, even though you change yours every six months. How long ago was it that you said you would never post in another trans thread on here ever again? That was right before you got this new name.

I've had far far worse on here and only one comment has ever really really got to me.

So the flounces and name-changes are just for effect?

But can't you see that all it does is turn the debate into on ongoing personal pissing contest between you and them ?

Aren't you sick of it ? Don't you want to move the discussion forward ? There are plenty of us who would prefer to focus on how to resolve the practical issues rather than constantly fighting about the theory which we're never going to agree on.

"I don't actually believe you are."

I do honestly feel sorry for you. You must be suffering a lot, and there must be some underlying issue that is compelling you to crave even more pain, coming on MN again and again, asking people to answer questions like "Am I male?" for which you know you won't like the answer.

So it is "hurtful" to call men "he" when they have decided that they want to be women.

Well. Boo hoo.

Lots of things in life are hurtful. As adults we deal with it and move on.

No one agrees and the same things are discussed. Nothing ever moves forward.

I think a lot changes with trans threads actually. Every time there is one on MN, a lot of women learn about how these issues will affect them. The threads are consciousness raising - and that's a good thing.

Hi Egosumquisum

I am fairly ignorant on what it means to be a trans gender person.

I don't suppose you would be willing to explain to me (and maybe others) what it is that made you decide that you are female?

What aspects of being female do you consider relevant in this choice?

Is it that you like to wear traditionally female clothing? That you fancy men? That you don't like a lot of things that men are culturally expected to like?

I really am failing to understand what it is that makes someone say 'I am truly a woman though I have a penis'.

I hope this isn't too intrusive; I don't honestly feel I can fall off the fence on either side without a bit more insight and it is hard to come by.

Don't answer if you don't want to. They are personal questions.