Is Mumsnet HQ evil or not very bright.

[TiggyD]

As some of you may already know you're allowed to call transgendered women "men in dresses" and refer to them as "he" and "him.

"So some men dressing as women..." as one posted said in relation to trans women got the reply from RebeccaMN:

We agree that this post is in poor taste but we don't tend to delete on those grounds because it would be really hard to know where to draw the line.
The truth is, we don't think we should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive and what they shouldn't. In these instances, it's very rare that a tasteless comment is left unchallenged, and we would highly recommend that you put forward your point of view on the thread.

Well firstly I think Mumsnet should draw the line at discrimination of a protected minority group.

Secondly, if MN don't think they should be the arbiters of what people should find offensive, maybe they should ask a representative from a human rights or anti discrimination group? Misgendering is always wrong.

Thirdly, is it rare an tasteless comment is unchallenged? Now the trans people on Mumsnet refuse to post on trans related threads who the hell is going to challenge them?

Fourthly, that post was unchallenged. Have a look at the thread.

Fifthly, "tasteless"? "TASTELESS"?! WTF? Tofu is tasteless. Would MNHQ describe calling people spastics or coons or faggots as tasteless? Misgendering is a put-down towards an entire minority. Dismissed as tasteless.

A quick look at a quote about the 2010 equality act:
"harassment - unwanted behaviour linked to a protected characteristic that violates someone’s dignity or creates an offensive environment for them".

Is there harassment in trans related threads on here? Is the dignity of all transwomen violated by referring to them all as men in dresses? Bleedingly obviously yes. Does it create an offensive environment for them? How the hell could it not? Does Mumsnet do anything to stop it? No.

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It all makes me wonder if the people of MNHQ are deliberately letting all this unkindness and discrimination and harassment go on because they evil, or because they don't know any better.
I think I have it. I reckon it's like the Ricky Gervais thing where he started doing "Mong" faces. All kinds of people told him it was offensive and an unkind name for people with Downs Syndrome but he refused to accept it. I think he thought that as he believed himself to be a good person, and he used the word mong, that mong had to be an acceptable word because he was good. I think it must be like that in MNHQ. They believe themselves to be good people and when they allow people to call transwomen men on thier site it's fine because their belief in themselves being good trumps all the views of the victims.

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One question for MNHQ that I alluded to earlier. Have you ever asked any kind of trans, human rights, or anti-discrimination group about how to treat trans people?

Have you?

Ever?

Cooger, very shrill. All of us. Bossy as well.

Fair enough Sparkling thought I hadn't seen you posting much, we must pass like ships in the night

And no, not ok, problematic in fact.

I think misgendering is a bit rude but really not the end of the world.

Presumably, as a male poster, you get misgendered all the time on MN Tiggy, yet you are still here posting and haven't crumpled into a heap of devastation. That's because 'he', 'she', 'male', 'female', 'trans' are not insults, are they? It would be different if someone was misgendering you deliberately and repeatedly - that would be goady, and as a member of MN community you'd have every right to have those comments deleted.

I feel the same way about 'cis' - if someone calls me cis once it's an opportunity to explain why I'm not and why the term is problematic. If it's used repeatedly and deliberately after that, it's goady fuckery and needs to stop.

Also, there should be a difference made between deliberately misgendering someone on a thread and deliberately misgendering someone in the public eye. There are loads of things people are allowed to say about for e.g. politicians or celebrities that, if they were directed at a MNer, would be deleted as PA's. As far as I can tell, the rules for things you are allowed to say about non MNers are nothing libellous and nothing 'beyond the pale'. Asserting that someone is male is neither of these.

There is a lot at stake for women here and sometimes being a bit rude and 'misgendering' someone in the public eye, who is clearly and obviously a man to anybody with any sense left in their head, is entirely necessary.

There was an MRA poster a while back, name from an old film star. OP very in tight with him off board, interestingly.
I expect he's distanced himself now, though. What with being an upstanding member of MN and Upholder Of Trans Matters and everything.
I'm sure that alliance was kicked to the curb the second OP decided it was not a good idea to lie down with dogs, in account of thefleas you tend to get up with.

Oh
I always assumed Tiggy was a transwoman. So he's a he? It's ok to call him he?

(Reaches for the prosecco)

I thought Tiggy was a man. I think I have him confused with TDiddy or someone? Can't remember now.

Sorry, a man with children.

I didn't know he was gay or that he doesn't have children. Not that it matters. I'm just confused as to whom I was thinking of now.

Right - I'm confused.

I seem to remember a Tiggy from ages ago who was a nanny or nursery nurse, so was a regular on MN in the same way that lots of CMs etc are. And of course those of us who are opposed to gender stereotypes were supportive in exactly the same way we support girls wanting to be engineers etc. Is this the same one?

Yes it is.

I can see why he is on MN. Well, in the first place, that is.

I'm another who'd never heard of the term cis until I came across it on MN. The mind truly boggles.

I'd got tiggy pegged as one of the pram huns a regular poster on the pushchairs board. I thought it was a bit incongruous. Must be a different tiggy unless his / her interests are broader than this post, taken singularly, would suggest

Are you think of DawnTigga who is lovely?

Yes, definitely a mistaken identity there.

I must be reading a different Mumsnet from the OP. What I see on here are not discussions about transwomen as such but about the issues that women face as a result of legislation that appears to have unwittingly created a new class of women and the impact this has on the group formerly accepted to be women.

That seems to me to be an entirely valid discussion for women to have.

The fact is that in order for transwomen to have the rights that transactivists are insisting on, it necessarily involves infringing on the rights and protections that women have fought long and hard for. And instead of being allowed to have an open and meaningful debate about how to resolve this, women are simply expected to STFU and accept the erosion of their rights and the erosion of their identity.

The outrage and hatred expressed towards women for not being passive and accepting is the very reason that women need to continuing speaking out and defending their rights. It comes as no surprise to me that the OP's ire has increased in direct proportion to the increase in posters standing up for themselves. When it was just a couple of random FWR posters trying to fudge their way around these issues in an attempt to avoid accusations of transphobia, the OP was quite happy to restrict himself to the odd patronising comment in FWR. Now that more women are standing up and insisting that their voices are heard, the OP resorts to trying to shut down the discussion in its entirety by unfounded and unfair accusations against MNHQ. Pretty low and underhand tactics going on there and I for one, see through it.

I see you TiggyD.

^^ rousing applause for Blistory

Yes, a commendably clear exposition.

Blistory im pouring a gin and tonic in your name. Extra ice, extra lime, and a fucking round of applause. Excellent post.

Ye Gads. I've read this thread, admit to being thoroughly confused by the issue in hand. Perplexed by the sheer amount of explanations and terminology.

I'm still non the wiser. Therefore have decided to refer (in written form/posts) to everyone as or if name unknown "they". I think it will work.

That should avoid all offence yes?

"I must be reading a different Mumsnet from the OP. What I see on here are not discussions about transwomen as such but about the issues that women face as a result of legislation that appears to have unwittingly created a new class of women and the impact this has on the group formerly accepted to be women"

I agree, Blistory.

In the course of the discussions, i think there is perhaps one post in 50 that breaches guidelines. When the post is reported it is deleted (no doubt MNHQ considers and doesn't delete other reported posts that are still within guidelines)

There's no stupidity or evil involved from MNHQ, FFS.

TiggyD quite often posts in a way designed to make posters assume he is a woman (along the lines of "all the girls in the nursery staff room aren't sharing their chocolates with me, what should I do?" - note this isn't a direct quote).

(There is also a poster, tiggytape, who comments on school appeals and who isn't TiggyD)

Oh, Blistory once again, you have shown me why you are my fave MNer of all time. You always say exactly what I'm feeling, but am unable to put in a post so eloquently.

But so many other fantastic posts/posters too - too many to name. A positive goldrush of amazing posters writing amazing posts. This is the kind of thread I read in FWR when I first joined Mn and it completely changed my outlook on life. FWR was, and still is, imo, a place where women can talk about being women - really talk about it - and one of the few places online where women can do this in relative privacy. So the "FWR posters are meanies" type can just FTFO imo.

TiggyD, in my long experience of MN, is a man, and identifies as male, although may not be heterosexual. None of ^that is a problem, although I find a lot of his posts to be very anti-women. I have certainly found him to be very aggressive (as far as one can be online) about MN feminism.

BTW- just to be clear, I support MN's stance of allowing a free discussion on trans issues, the intersection on women's rights and feminism, and treating each post individually and deleting on any that cross the line.

Yes the one who was a nursery nurse or similar. Who was that? Similar name IIRC.

Dawntigga is unmistakeable. (female)

Tiggywunkle is the pram expert. (female)

I think the nursery nurse is TiggyD.