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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Would MNHQ consider extending the definition of "misgendering"

229 replies

HermioneWeasley · 02/06/2015 20:30

Hi

I wondered what MNHQ and MNetters thought about extending misgendering to include referring to people as "cis"? There are many of us who find it offensive and reject it. Given that whenever it is used, there always at least one poster asking what it means, it seems unhelpful at best and offensive at worst.

OP posts:
Friday99 · 05/06/2015 13:00

I won't even call a trans woman a trans woman. They are men as far as I am concerned. Men with gender identity issues. Or should this be on the things that piss off the mumsnet jury thread?

BlueKarou · 05/06/2015 13:28

I won't even call a trans woman a trans woman. They are men as far as I am concerned. Men with gender identity issues. Or should this be on the things that piss off the mumsnet jury thread?

Now this I would call transphobic misgendering.

In response to other posts, I don't think anyone is suggesting that ciswoman would replace calling someone a woman. It's more that there's a larger group of women, with a small subset of transwomen and a term for the larger subset is ciswomen.

BathtimeFunkster · 05/06/2015 13:34

It's more that there's a larger group of women, with a small subset of transwomen and a term for the larger subset is ciswomen.

I consider this to be gynophobic misgendering.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 05/06/2015 13:41

I don't think trans women belong to the gender group women. I don't think they are a subset. I think they are a distinct gender category.

FloraFox · 05/06/2015 13:52

MTTs are a subset of men, not of women.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 05/06/2015 14:01

They are a subset of males. However their gender category isn't a subset of anything IMO.

BlueKarou · 05/06/2015 14:05

There's your answer then. You believe one thing, I, and others, believe another thing. A whole extra group of people have probably never even thought about it either way.

I am more than happy to include transwomen in my definition of women.

(Also, fwiw, I think MTT is a hideous term.)

Friday99 · 05/06/2015 14:20

If they are biological males, who feel they are women, any subset should be a subset of males. Nothing to do with women at all.

ArcheryAnnie · 05/06/2015 16:34

I don't think anyone is suggesting that ciswoman would replace calling someone a woman.

But this is exactly what is happening all over social media, BlueKarou. It's happened plenty on MN already.

I am not cis, by any definition you use. Calling me cis, or assuming I am cis, or describing what I say as "cissplaining" or any other thing which ascribes the "cis" label to me or mine is not just offensive, it's inaccurate.

I am not alone in this.

(I'm going to borrow and use "gynophobic misgendering". Thanks, Bathtime.)

BlueKarou · 05/06/2015 18:29

I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion. I've read back through the thread and I think, for me, the problem is that a vast majority of the posters on this thread simply do not accept transwomen as being women. This is then clearly a large part of the argument against the term ciswoman. I can't begin to understand this, and will never agree with it. The world beliefs I subscribe to hold that all people are equal, and not solely defined by what sex we were born, or what gender we identify as. That is where my argument stems from.

I thoroughly respect the opinions of all the people on this thread, even if I cannot understand or agree with them. I won't say that the oh so witty accusation of gynophobic misgendering didn't sting this proud feminist, but I see what you were aiming at.

Thank you for reading my posts and for responding.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 05/06/2015 18:55

Blue, no idea if you will read this if you are bowing out, but...
Of course all people are equal. But not all people are the same. Men are not the same as women, that's not what being equal means. Black people are not the same as white people.
On the inside we are all the same - but society doesn't categorise people by their insides. That's what despite the fact that race is a meaningless concept in terms of actual differences, it has meaning because society gives it meaning. Being black in the UK or US particularly is more dangerous than being white in lots of ways because society ascribes certain roles to black people. Same with women, obviously.
So there are fundamental differences in the way humans are socialised and perceived on a societal level. We are therefore different in terms of our social categories, although equal.

And no, many women can't and don't accept that trans women are women in exactly the same way that we are. Biology is not imaginary, it's a real set of distinctions between male and females of any species which exist, objectively. Ascribing sex to body parts is not essentialist, it's factual.
Gender identity isn't the same as sex, it resides in the mind, not the body, but that doesn't mean that the brain (as the brain is not the same as the mind) has a gender or a sex. Both of those assertions have been made by trans theorists and they are simply untrue. The mind creates a gender identity out of its experiences in the world, how the person is treated and socialised. The gender identity can be influenced by hormones as in 'butch' as an identity that is often expressed by masculine women who tend to have higher levels of testosterone. However it isn't innate, it isn't predetermined at birth and it isn't separate from the person's lived experiences.

To say otherwise puts women back in the box where we lived when women were believed to be less intelligent, less rational, more animal, better at housework and worse at science. It validates the idea of male and female brains which is a gift to misogynists. It is self defeating and actually self hating for a feminist to accept this doctrine (because it is a doctrine, it's not fact)

Personally I am very happy to call a trans woman she, by a female name and hang out with her as a female friend. I completely accept that trans women have body and sex dysphoria and that presenting as a woman may make them feel much happier about themselves. I'm not wedded to the concept of gender so it doesn't matter to me if a male person wears dresses and makeup and heels, because I don't think those signifiers are very important. I'm not transphobic but neither do I accept, uncritically, that trans women are women the same way that I am.

I have lived through childhood as a girl, adolescence as a girl and adulthood as a woman. I have a female body and female experiences. I will not accept that I am not allowed to refer to PMT and pregnancy and contraception and vaginal penetration and clitoral orgasms as female experiences. I will not have my life being socialised as a woman devalued and made nothing by trans women asserting that their boyhoods were actually girlhoods because tada! They were female all along. I will not accept that a penis can be reframed as a long clitoris or that a penis can be female. I will not accept that calling female genital mutilation by its name is 'cissexist'. That is all bullshit to me and I will never accept it.

Im so grateful to the feminism boards for allowing me a space to think deeply about trans theory. I was in a total state of cognitive dissonance before as I was so anxious about being transphobic. I hope these threads continue until nobody wants to discuss it anymore. We have not yet reached peak trans on mumsnet - far from it.

Blistory · 05/06/2015 19:23

Ehric, I'm exactly where you are on this.

RufusTheReindeer · 05/06/2015 23:17

mnhq

Are we still not getting an answer on this? Or is it still under consideration?

FloraFox · 06/06/2015 02:24

blue it is not a question of acceptance. Many women would accept MTTs as women while knowing they are men because they are sympathetic to gender non-conforming people. This does not mean they believe gender non-conforming men are actually women or that the category of women is meaningless.

SunshineBossaNova · 06/06/2015 10:14

Great post Ehric

IonaMumsnet · 06/06/2015 13:35

Morning all. Sorry - we are here and reading. Olivia did post further upthread but in case anyone missed it, here's the link again to the discussion we had on the whole issue some time ago, which should explain where we got to on the subject. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2123131-MNHQ-Mumsnet-and-transphobia-our-thoughts

HermioneWeasley · 06/06/2015 15:02

Hi iona, forgive me if I missed it, but I don't think that thread addresses the specific question about "cis". My reading of where it got to is that if a poster says they don't like cis and are called it, th post should definitely be deleted under your "misgendering" rules.

It seems we won't get a blanket ban on calling women "ciswomen" in th same way that there is a blanket ban on calling men who identify as women, men.

Is that correct?

OP posts:
StickEm · 06/06/2015 18:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mintyy · 06/06/2015 19:26

Yes, that's the whole point. You are being very patient Hermione Flowers.

MythicalKings · 06/06/2015 19:39

Awaiting answer from MNHQ. Blanket ban on cis seems only fair.

cigarsofthepharaoh · 06/06/2015 19:58

I posted on the first transwomen thread, talking about my experiences with DP and her trans identity. On that thread, I referred to posters as cis, unthinkingly because that is what is commonly accepted in our circles of friends.

I would like to apologise to those people. These threads, and subsequent reading I have done, have made me questions my unthinking views on this.

I think that what Hermione is calling for is the right thing to do. Nobody should have labels forced upon them. For trans people to do that to women is disregarding the very thing they are asking for themselves (to be labelled and referred to as they would like).

Women are the only ones getting the shaft in this, as ever. Calling women "cis" when they don't identity as "cis" is misgendering them.

HermioneWeasley · 06/06/2015 20:12

Thanks all for your support. I'm still waiting for a response.

OP posts:
CitrineRaindropPhoenix · 06/06/2015 20:30

Ehric - your post is fabulous. I completely agree. I am entirely sympathetic to a trans woman who decides to live as a woman.

It does not mean experiences of living as a biological female adult should be shouted down for excluding trans women.

I also feel uncomfortable about the fact that the space now being fought for by trans women is space which women seized for themselves in the last century. Once again, women are required to be accommodating. Men (cis men) less so.

QueenStromba · 06/06/2015 20:31

I also hate cis.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 06/06/2015 21:25

Thanks all Flowers

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