Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
Wereweatherwool · 23/10/2014 11:05

When the troll hunters rounded on me MNHQ mailed me and said they were dealing.

I was cross that it had happened but it's not HQ that did it, they tried to put it right, even if it did take a while.

I agree, rock - hard place. They can't totally troll proof the site, this is the internet but we could stop eating ourselves.

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:06

( bit like Marks and spencer shakes fist angrily )

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:07

its only when you get trolls and suicide that it becomes really bad.
the rest of the time you just ignore or blither on about teachers contracted hours Wink

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/10/2014 11:07

Does MN get a lot of suicide threads? If so is there any way MNHQ could liaise with Samaritans to offer on thread support by a trained Samaritans volunteer with other users locked out, and the thread hidden to all but the OP and Samaritans bod?

magimedi · 23/10/2014 11:08

It's only a discussion forum not a mental health service or a health service or anything that owes anybody anything. It's a chat forum.

I agree. And it's free and you don't have to be here.

I don't understand the reluctance of people to report threads. It's not like "telling tales", it's saying to HQ that in your opinion you think something is wrong/dodgy & pointing it out to them. I've reported lots of threads, not just for suspect trollery but for ageism, advertising etc.

I've always had a reply & quite often my opinion has not been agreed with & the thread has been allowed to stand. But there is always a reason in the reply & that's fine by me.

I like it here, it's fun & can be very supportive but it's not real life and I'm always aware that anyone, anywhere on the internet could so easily not be what they seem.

As to suicide threads I think they should have a link to the Samaritans & be closed. The potential for trouble, be it trolling & upset or a live suicide is just to great & outweighs any benefits.

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:09

yup - perfectly explained magi

WannaBe · 23/10/2014 11:10

"It's a chat forum. Why do we expect them to be responsible for grown adults and our feelings or vulnerability?" because if there are rl implications as a result of those vulnerabilities then the buck would stop with mn. We read all the time about people who harm themselves/children who come to harm after going on x or y website to read about self harm/eating disorders/meet up with virtual strangers. Mn is no different.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:10

@BettyMoody

it might have helped them- but look at the shit its caused now. Think MN needs to decide WHAT it is, and not be something to everyone?

It's really tricky. On the one hand we have users who are in with the bricks (either because they're long-term MNers or because they just become part of MN very quickly) and who probably broadly share similar ideas of what MN is. Those users tend to form fast friendships and use MN for lots of different things, from school-run dresses to MH support.

But we are also a truly massive community now with many disparate voices and many different opinions about how things like this should be handled.

And also, alongside that, some persistent re-regging trouble-makers and drive-by irritants.

OP posts:
InfinitySeven · 23/10/2014 11:10

This isn't just a suicide problem, though.

I mentioned MN to someone last week, because I couldn't offer them any advice. I probably shouldn't have, because of the current troll issues, but I thought they'd get some help.

They didn't. Their first and only post was deleted, because a lot of people reported it. To be fair, it wasn't a standard situation, but there was so much troll hunting that I shouldn't think she'll ever be back. And I know her, in real life, and can vouch that the situation was true.

Wombat is the same. She could have been real. She was deleted and banned without any contact from MNHQ. She had an email saying the thread would be removed so she could get real-life help, which is fine, but no notification of being deleted.

I can only imagine how upset I'd have been if I'd have been called a troll when talking about my actual life. And to be deleted...well, that's MNHQ ganging up with the troll hunters.

For trolls, of course, there has to be deletions, though. And while Wombat's upset seemed genuine, the thread story changed dramatically, so she may well have been a troll.

There needs to be some kind of process that means new people don't fear posting because their situation isn't run of the mill. My life has been crazy in aspects, and I have no doubt that if I posted it, I'd be called a troll. It's all true, though. I could probably evidence it, although I'm not sure I'd bother. And as has been said, running up a posting history doesn't matter - spend a few months replying to everything and becoming well-known, and you could post anything.

Daisy was the key issue here. So many people were taken in with that, because it seemed genuine. And then it started following the usual troll theme...the live updates, the lack of emotion...and people started troll hunting on the thread, which meant nobody could reply, and then the thread went poof and people posted for days asking what had happened. Okay, so she was a long-term user, and she had a reason for posting. But she wasn't being genuine. How did she escape a ban when my friend and Wombat didn't?

This place has a reputation for being somewhere where there is always a helping hand, a listening ear. So people who can't get help elsewhere will flock here, especially with things that they can't help verbalising in real-life.

I worked on a control panel with MIND, and they are clear that for threatened suicide threads, helpful links should be posted and the threads should be closed. They should not turn into a huge thread of people posting supportive messages. Statistics say that if a person is going to commit suicide, they won't want people to stop them, so they won't talk about it. If they do, it'll be a goodbye-to-the-world type post, the online equivalent of a suicide note. Those people can't be stopped.

In the odd case that someone is stopped from committing suicide by a group of people on here, you've created a dangerous scenario. When those people log off and go back to their real life, the suicidal person is alone again, and now feels even more abandoned. That could push them closer to suicide.

Banning those posters isn't the answer, if they need support. But live suicide threads cannot run. They need to be responded too with the Samaritans phone number, and a plea to get real-life help. If there are issues that can be solved in relationships, in health, in any other area, than the user can go there for help. But if they are just threatening suicide, that cannot stand.

We presented these recommendations three years ago, and most forums follow them. There is probably still copies of the guidance available, if you want to read through it in full.

So suicide threads should be easily solved. But the trolling situation needs solving, too.

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:11

i think atm there is a culture on here where that seems the norm - the suicide help thing

This place rolls around with various moods/cultured. We had baby modelling,Shock crafters, all sorts of people. It moves on and evolves. I dont want it to lose its original purpose

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:12

i don't think Mn has a reputation for being helpful, sadly. (Outside the site.)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/10/2014 11:13

With regards to continual TAATs being started to ask what has happened to deleted threads, I suggest MN sets up a deleted threads topic that only they can post in, and move deleted threads there. Would also stop all the "marking place for deletion message" thread bumping that goes on.

Would also suggest new policy of sanctioning those who trollhunt on thread with eg temp suspension to try and make it unacceptable.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:13

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Does MN get a lot of suicide threads? If so is there any way MNHQ could liaise with Samaritans to offer on thread support by a trained Samaritans volunteer with other users locked out, and the thread hidden to all but the OP and Samaritans bod?

We've always had these threads, although there does seem to have been a bit of an uptick recently. What we can't tell is whether they're being reported more (because people are shaken up), whether there are just more genuine threads (because we're bigger than we used to be), or whether this is (in SOME cases) part of what seems to be a nasty influx of inflammatory trolls over the last couple of months. Probably a combo of all three.

Thanks for the suggestion. We will absolutely add that to our list of things to discuss with them.

OP posts:
AuntieStella · 23/10/2014 11:13

The trouble with the NightWatch is that it is public.

If you want to report a post during working hours (and none of us are sure which are the working v silent hours, and IIRC that's deliberate so trolls don't know when to start) you have to make a post about it. Now, if it's spam, a poster might not be too bothered about a username being public to the spammer. But if it's a thread about which you have concerns, being unable to report anonymously means that what you are doing is, in effect, starting a troll-hunting TAAT, visible to the whole world and a user you think is Not Quite What They Seem (or, as here, is unusually vulnerable). Either way, it draws attention.

Is the way ahead a behind-the-scenes divert to the 'report' function so, whenever used, it pings for someone who is awake and can deal with things. Proper MNHQers whenever possible, or volunteers who can lock threads until MNHQ can deal (including a 'call out' procedure for difficult issues)?

SleepySuitcaseSheepie · 23/10/2014 11:14

Is there not a way when a regular posts but name changes - it can say how many posts that person has done (despite name change) so if a new poster or 3 posts in the last 5 years since they have registered you can tell?

It's not Rowans fault - she is just letting us know what's happening - thanks for that Thanks and maybe a glass or two? Wine

I do feel that if someone comes on with a serious MH issue - such as talking about self harming it should be locked, a message to the OP explaining why and then a link to a helpline.

However the MH boards can be helpful, talking about medication/support/supporting others which people do need - no matter what time it is

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:16

I only have one experience of suicide and the same kind of info that most of us have, but what i do know ( hope this is true) is that when someone is truly set on killing themselves they will do so regardless, even when initially thwarted. They are utterly determined to do so.
I am not sure how this fits in with posting on Mumsnet about it.

It is SUCH complicated area.

Wereweatherwool · 23/10/2014 11:17

I really don't think that shouting troll on threads helps though.

Trolls will always be around, i'm not sure what MN can do to stop them, I see the headlines now...

'MN fixes the internet'

It's not actually feasible.
Ignoring is a tool we all have and yet few seem to use it. It's more 'fun' to run around saving the day by screaming troll - unless you're in a crappy place and you're the one being screamed at.

WannaBe · 23/10/2014 11:18

betty even baby modelling had a troll though. Shock she was in the times and everything and the police were involved.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:20

@InfinitySeven

This isn't just a suicide problem, though.

I mentioned MN to someone last week, because I couldn't offer them any advice. I probably shouldn't have, because of the current troll issues, but I thought they'd get some help.

They didn't. Their first and only post was deleted, because a lot of people reported it. To be fair, it wasn't a standard situation, but there was so much troll hunting that I shouldn't think she'll ever be back. And I know her, in real life, and can vouch that the situation was true.

Oh blimey, sorry to hear this. If you email us the details off-board we will have a look. And (sorry, too many balls) right now I can't think who the poster you're referring to was (when you're asking why she didn't get a ban) and on-thread really isn't the place to go into it in all honesty - but do please add the details to your mail as well?

Thanks very much re the info on MIND - we will get in contact with them (or again do please mail us with the links and we will get on it).

OP posts:
BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:21

OMG lol at baby moggling thread troll.
remember the crafters who went on about DYEs all the time - they werent dyes, even were they? And bought things to stick on cards and called it creative?

[grin

wistful

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:21

@AuntieStella

The trouble with the NightWatch is that it is public.

If you want to report a post during working hours (and none of us are sure which are the working v silent hours, and IIRC that's deliberate so trolls don't know when to start) you have to make a post about it. Now, if it's spam, a poster might not be too bothered about a username being public to the spammer. But if it's a thread about which you have concerns, being unable to report anonymously means that what you are doing is, in effect, starting a troll-hunting TAAT, visible to the whole world and a user you think is Not Quite What They Seem (or, as here, is unusually vulnerable). Either way, it draws attention.

Is the way ahead a behind-the-scenes divert to the 'report' function so, whenever used, it pings for someone who is awake and can deal with things. Proper MNHQers whenever possible, or volunteers who can lock threads until MNHQ can deal (including a 'call out' procedure for difficult issues)?

Actually (and apols for not letting people know this) NWers now get alerts when a post or poster or thread is reported multiple times. So just reporting as normal will get through to them so long as enough people (and it's not a very high number) do it.

OP posts:
LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 11:21

For those of you that say, its not a mental health support site, you are absolutely right - but there IS a mental health forum on this site, where people are encouraged to go and get support from each other. I have done this over the years and received more support and care from other users than i could have ever dreamed of, its been a life line for me.

Theres a quote isn't there, i don't know who said it - im not so bright, but it says "With great power, comes great responsibility"

That is the same for this - this is not a forum run by the users, it is a BUSINESS, one that is making a stack of money i daresay. With that success there comes a level of responsibility to the users of that service. Now it has never blatantly said its a support forum for mental health or relationships etc, that has pretty much grown itself but make no mistake, on the back of each and every post on this site, someone is making money through advertising revenue.

By not having paid staff working through the night (when most of the trolling will take place and often when people are at their most vulnerable) I feel that mnhq are shirking their responsibility.

Maybe im being over sensitive but that makes me feel a bit used in some way.

I have been on this forum now for nearly 9 years and several name changes (for various reasons) but lately things are not the same - i'm not staying, which is a shame for me because i have been supported by other users over the years, but i do not want to be posting in distress one night to have my threads locked down by an untrained volunteer (who incidentally i think is being used as well - a bit like workfare realy isn't it? ) because in my incoherant state there might be inconsistencies in my posting. No thanks.

Really really disappointed, I had hoped all of this would have blown over, but fuck it hey, mnhq head home to their lovely warms houses at 5pm and clean up the mess the following morning.

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:22

MIND tip seems a good one

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:24

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

With regards to continual TAATs being started to ask what has happened to deleted threads, I suggest MN sets up a deleted threads topic that only they can post in, and move deleted threads there. Would also stop all the "marking place for deletion message" thread bumping that goes on.

Would also suggest new policy of sanctioning those who trollhunt on thread with eg temp suspension to try and make it unacceptable.

Thanks. We do sometimes warn and ban people for troll-hunting but we will check that we're doing this as diligently as we should.

The deletion messages were partly an attempt to solve this problem (by putting as much info as possible in there) but annoyingly, at the moment they're not viewable on mobile. Hopefully once that is sorted there will be fewer threads about deleted threads.

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:25

Haven't heard 'mogglers' for years...

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread