Scottish Referendum debate - watch with Mumsnet

[KatieMumsnet]

So tonight sees the first TV debate of the Scottish Referendum with First Minister and key advocate of the pro- yes campaign, Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling, leader of the pro-UK Better Together campaign coming together for a head to head debate for the first time.

You can watch live from 8pm on STV and if you're south of the border can tune in via the STV player.

Fancy watching along with us? What are you hoping to see from tonight's debate? What are your thoughts on the campaigns so far?

If you've decided which way to vote, why? And if not, what will help you decide?

Do feel free to share these, and any more thoughts you have

I suppose it depends on how you're approaching it prettybird. If you make the decision to leave the marriage because you are so unhappy that you don't want to stay at any cost then of course the details are less/not important - the same works for voters who are unquestioning Yes voters.

For those who are questioning the decision to leave then my analogy stands firm - you wouldn't take on another job elsewhere without being absolutely clear on the T&Cs before you jumped ship.

Re the DK - I would be very interested to know why they had changed their views, does anyone know?. Regardless of that, however, the Nos are still out in front.

questioning the decision to leave the UK, not the marriage

SirChenjin - can you answer the question why, in your view, we're better together? I genuinely want to understand the argument. Nobody has yet articulated that, despite me asking the question on a number of occasions (not just on here).

I've looked at the You Decide 2014 website and it just perpetuates some of the myths from a Government perspective (like the NHS - which I know, having worked in both NHSs, are totally separate) which makes me cynical about some of their other facts.

In general, a vote for yes is a vote for change, and a vote for no is a vote to carry on as we are.

So I'm not sure that the 'stay the same' campaign have to put forward a positive case.

The side that wants change has to say why, surely.

Does it really matter to you why I think we're better together? Why are you so interested in what a complete stranger on an online forum thinks? I've looked at the arguments from both sides and have made up my mind - I'm not sure why you are looking to me to help make up your mind?

What are the myths from the Govt re the NHS on the You Decide website?

I'm a no voter and while I think there are a million flaws in our system of UK government, I don't want to risk something worse.

I'm very concerned about the currency issue and don't see any clear answers on this.

Personally, I loathe the Tories and I'd love to scrap trident. But that doesn't swing me to yes as I'm too cynical about government in general and feel we'd end up feeling pissed off and let down no matter who was in power.

You're right SirChenjin - it doesn't really matter. It's just that you are one of the most articulate people I've read on the matter (and I've done lots of reading! ) and as I'm getting frustrated at not getting an answer. I thought it was worth asking you, as I presumed that you would have some thoughts.

Guess I'll just have to continue to be frustrated.

I mentioned one myth: the NHS. Even though it says that healthcare is devolved, it implies that we can only afford it because of the 31 million taxpayers in the UK. It has also, elsewhere, implied that we wouldn't be able to make use of cross-border services, despite the fact that that is already the way that it is set up (and we already have mechanisms for "cross-border" services with Ireland and other European countries. When I worked in NHS England over 20 years ago, they were sending people abroad for some operations as it was actually cheaper or quicker).

The other one is cross-border controls: why, if we don't have border controls with Ireland (which has a different immigration policy), would controls need to be set up? An immigrant into one country still wouldn't be able to claim benefits or work (legally) if they travelled to the other. I also really, really resent the implication (to be fair, not explicit on the YouDecide2014 website but part of the message of the Vote No Borders campaign) that "foreign" relatives are something to be sad about. All my "blood" relatives, with the exception of my immediate family (father, brother, son) are "foreigners" .

When you read the YouDecide website, there are an awful lot of "coulds". There are also lots of statements about benefits that we currently receive - yet they could be changed tomorrow if/when the government changes/chooses. Ditto with the debate about Europe: there is no certainty that the UK, let alone Scotland, will be in the EU in a few years time. The future is not certain, whichever way people vote.

Having said that, I'm agreeing more and more with my father that the decision shouldn't be based on the economics. It should be based on whether or not you think it is the right thing to do as it is a long term decision. That's why I'd like to understand why it is that we are better together. I can understand it from a gut feel perspective - but that's the only one I "get".

Morris- a no vote isn't a vote for the status quo it is vote for uncertainty about us staying in the EU, uncertainty about the future power of UKIP, uncertainty about where the further cuts and tax rises that have been promised Will come from.

With a no vote, yes supporters won't disappear. In the 19th September the campaign for another referendum will start. Therefore uncertainty will continue. Until there is a yes vote this issue will never go away.

You charmer you, prettybird .

I suppose I'm just slightly weary of the whole thing (although I do seem incapable of stopping myself from posting on the indy threads ) - but basiscally I find myself agreeing with the BT far more than I do with the SNP. If I genuinely believed that we would be better off an an independent country then of course I would vote Yes - I'd be mad not to - but I honestly don't believe we will. I think there are a lot of people for whom the facts and figures don't matter - they are voting for an ideology, come what may. Perhaps they can afford to think that way, but I can't - and I don't believe that an independent Scotland will benefit our future generations in terms of economics, job prospects, health and social care, education, and so on.

And equally the no voters won't go away weatherall...

Can I ask what the day to day concerns are for regular Scots? When you say that your politicians have no power in Westminster and your votes are ignored, what incidents do you refer to specifically? I live within throwing distance of London and I don't feel like my voice is listened to either! Isn't that normal to a certain extent?

It is normal, absolutely. I didn't vote for the SNP (no surprise there!), but have to live with their politics. My Dad lives up in the NE of Scotland - he doesn't feel anymore represented by a Scottish Central Belt Govt than he does by a UK Govt in London.

I think the 'we will immediately start a campaign for another referendum ' approach is pathetic. Honestly. You can't just keep taking votes until folk get so bored they agree. Whatever the outcome, both sides need to work together post referendum to make Scotland work whatever our political system.

I bet you would be none to impressed if there was a yes vote and the no camp immediately started campaigning for a referendum to take us back in.

All that will result from that is an ever more divided country facing the worst of all worlds

Thanks for answering SirChenjin

I come from a perspective that all my Danish relatives are genuinely that we don't think we would be better off, given the resources at Scotland's disposal and who keep asking me what it is that makes us better off in the larger country, when the majority of countries with higher GDPs than the UK are smaller than the UK and many are a similar size to what Scotland would be. I can't answer them.

So basically you're saying that you have it on good authority that the Yes campaign will ignore the results of a democratically held referendum if the majority vote No, but will instead put the date in the diary for another referendum and will start working towards that. And will repeat that process over and over and over and over until they finally get the result they want?

Really? On whose authority do you have that?

Weatherall, that's no different to any time in history. Change can and does happen, but a no vote is to keep as much status quo as we've ever had. Current times are no more in flux than any other time.

That's interesting re your Danish relatives - we have friends over in Denmark and friends who used to live there. Both find/found it incredibly expensive to live there - they have a much better standard of living in the UK, and both were well paid (civil engineering, some senior scientist for the Govt). One of the friends is very anti inde - she feels that we are much better within the UK as her DH (the engineer) can compete for more contracts. Norway too is incredibly expensive - and that oil fund was used to invest in foreign banks (iirc) which has not translated to huge personal wealth for the Norwegians who have (again, iirc) a high level of personal debt.

If I had a vote I'd vote 'yes'. Alistair Darling really annoyed me with his well you won't be in our gang so you'll sink. And I agree it won't go away. I think it's high time for a split.

In case anyone's not had enough of this. It's on again tonight on BBC Parliament channel at 7 pm.

"When you say that your politicians have no power in Westminster and your votes are ignored, what incidents do you refer to specifically? I live within throwing distance of London and I don't feel like my voice is listened to either! Isn't that normal to a certain extent?"

Within my lifetime there have been 8 general elections, Scotland has voted for Labour in every one yet the Conservatives have won 5 of them. It's not an individual politics thing, it could be any party, the bit that bothers people is that Scotland votes one way and gets the opposite government anyway.

Then you get things like the 'bedroom tax' a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist in Scotland that more than 90% of Scottish MPs voted against and it passes anyway, then resources had to be used to stop it in Scotland because it just wasn't a beneficial policy.

It's not so much about your individual voice not being listened to, because yes I think everyone feels that, but that a whole country isn't listened to.

I'm not a Nationalist as such, but I do think there are huge issues with how democracy is working when the government is largely decided by an area with different issues and policy is then decided by people representing those areas.

Maybe my relatives are just thrawn or altruistic! - I prefer to think the latter, as it ties in with the politics that I was brought up with (which includes having been happy to pay a higher rate of tax/Band G Council tax which is a lot in Glasgow 'cos I believe in public services and that means being taxed in order to pay for them ). My dad is the sort of person who has written to HMRC to say that they calculated wrong and he owed more tax.

Having said that, one of my relatives is now an exile in Monaco as her dh is a millionaire and resents paying any tax. I don't know what her view is as she wasn't at the recent reunion but her husband is a right wing racist prat

I'm voting No because for a few reasons -

I don't buy the we have no voice argument. We have one vote each just like every other person in the UK;
We're being asked to agree to a fundamental and irreversible change without knowing the details of that change as they're all subject to negotiation;
I've not been convinced that there will be any significant benefit that's worth the huge expense, disruption and trauma that leaving the union will result in.

Thanks for that reply tabulahrasa. I can see how that must be very frustrating. As a non-Tory voter I hated to see them voted in, but at least I couldn't say they got in against the wishes of everyone in my country!

*or the majority, rather

I don't think you can say that anyone who has concerns about high levels of tax isn't altruistic - although I think altruism is easier to subscribe to if you have the financial wherewithal.

As for it not going away - for the sake of democracy (and our collective sanities) it has to - once the majority has cast its vote we need to accept the outcom and move forward, otherwise we will never be fully able to move forward or claim to be a truly democratic country.