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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 24/10/2013 22:07

There seems to be a lot of mistrust of MNHQ. When AF was banned people were immediately up in arms saying OMG a decent poster banned for responding to a troll. Then it turned out to be a week's suspension for far more problematic behaviour and everyone is ok.

Before that it was Penis Beaker and everyone up in arms that the OP had been exposed to the world while MNHQ tweeted her shame. Then it turned out that they had done their best to delete the OP's previous posts in the midst of major technical difficulties, and everyone was ok again.

MNHQ don't seem to be a bunch of arses, intent on doing nothing but sell us to advertisers. However, a lot of people seem to automatically believe the worst; instead of thinking 'that sounds a bit shitty, not like MN, maybe there's something I'm not getting'.

Why?

Buildingamystery · 24/10/2013 22:07

72,000 posts??

TEErickOrTEEreat · 24/10/2013 22:07

Thanks Justine. I can't be bothered to read the whingefest thread but I think you've gone above and beyond in the explanations. I would have told people to fuck off. But I don't run a website with millions of posters and tens of millions of monthly hits.

I also want to give public kudos to Rebecca who held her own, with her usual grace and aplomb, dealing with all of this. I would have lost my shit more than once last night.

AmberLeaf · 24/10/2013 22:08

It does seem a bit much posting about a members history like that, but what else could MNHQ do after last nights brouhaha?

MNHQ didn't ask for this did they, it needn't have been 'public' knowledge at all.

ExcuseTypos · 24/10/2013 22:08

Thank you Rowan for answering.

I still think, detailed analysis should have been quoted, or non at all.

At least you've now said how many times she has posted, so the deletions can be put into some context.

MacaYoniandCheese · 24/10/2013 22:08

I'm liking the idea of a MN naughty-step though. Could we have a rotten tomato emoticon or a maybe some sort of dunce cap beside a poster's name?

PedlarsSpanner · 24/10/2013 22:08

Yes indeed noble, I find this quite tricky to get head around.

tribpot · 24/10/2013 22:09

It strikes me that the lack of information about the length of AF's ban played a significant part in the situation that occurred last night. Yet this rates barely a mention by MN.

WeleaseWodger · 24/10/2013 22:09

Personally, I think what's left AF open to more aggressive attacks in the future is the number of threads about her ban and the aggression and demands of her supporters to treat her differently than other posters on those threads. It may have been well intended, but backfired spectacularly.

TheDoctrineOfAnyFucker · 24/10/2013 22:10

Justine, appreciate you updating us all on this, thanks.

NorthernLurker · 24/10/2013 22:10

The 'context' of the deletions I make to be 0.26% of her total posting. AKA bugger all if you want to look at in those terms.

Of ocurse my maths could be wrong. Probably is.

HardFacedCareeristBitchNigel · 24/10/2013 22:10

Re name changing - would there be capability in your software to only allow posters with a certain number of posts (eg 150) and specified period of membership to name change ? And also limit it to a certain number of name changes per month/year

timidviper · 24/10/2013 22:11

What is wrong with some of you people? You accuse MN of all sorts of hysterical conspiracies last night then, when they respond after all that baying for a response, you complain again!

If anyone has put AF in the position of having her dirty laundry aired in public it is those people who took part in last night's hysteria.

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2013 22:11

@tribpot

It strikes me that the lack of information about the length of AF's ban played a significant part in the situation that occurred last night. Yet this rates barely a mention by MN.

Yes, we should have been clearer about this last night and that's definitely been a 'learning' for us today...

bsc · 24/10/2013 22:12

Nooo! Not fair HFCBN.

I am sure I have more than 72,000 posts, and have been deleted exactly twice!

Some people need to nc regularly, and never use it to cause trouble.

SPsTombRaidingWithCliff · 24/10/2013 22:12

MN can't do right without doing wrong. People reacted strangely last night and wanted to know why AF had been banned. They find out why and still complain.

What more can MN do?!

I do not envy MNHQ at all

Sparklingbrook · 24/10/2013 22:12

But shouldn't everyone be aiming for 0% deletions NL? Nobody wants to be deleted.

MmeLindor · 24/10/2013 22:12

This is going to roll on and on, isn't it.

I don't think that it was unfair to give a bit of background. MNHQ have been accused of all sorts of nasty stuff over the past 24 hours and it has all got a bit out of hand.

We have to remember that even if a poster is deliberately inflammatory, they are often very clever in how they post and it can be tricky for MNHQ to prove.

I've obviously been on very different threads on Relationships, Bunny. When I posted looking for help some years ago, I wasn't told to LTB. I was given very good and insightful advice, by AF and many other posters.

BOF · 24/10/2013 22:12

Is anybody else dying of curiosity to know their own post/deletion ratio now? We could send, say, a quarter bottle of gin each as a bribe?

SoupDragon · 24/10/2013 22:13

It strikes me that the lack of information about the length of AF's ban played a significant part in the situation that occurred last night. Yet this rates barely a mention by MN.

Perhaps if AF or the OP announcing it had seen fit to say it was a week's suspension, none of this hysteria would have happened.

SPsTombRaidingWithCliff · 24/10/2013 22:14

BOF I think mine would be pretty low. Then again I have only been hear 18 months

PacificFucker · 24/10/2013 22:14

Thanks, Justine, for your OP.
I am glad that AF can/will be back after a short period of time.

2 points:

Somebody with strong opinions on a subject more likely to be emotive such as for instance, oh say, 'Relationships' is more likely to generate polarisation. So people posting a long, say, in the gardening section, even if prolific posters are far less likely to be controverstial. I think (disclaimer: I know little about gardening Wink).

I like the idea as discussed in FWR of letting ALL posts stand (other than the illegal ones) flagged with a short comment from MNHQ to avoid things like rape myths or diabablist posts stand unopposed, but without feeding the troll/giving a derailer the satisfaction.

ScaryNutellaFangs · 24/10/2013 22:14

I think that had HQ said on their first response that it was a suspension and was for a week then it would not have blown up the way it did.

The sweary thread which got deleted was being used to blow off some steam and then that got deleted with a very prim and proper "this is not in the spirit of the site" message, when it was a huge venting joke.

When you get that message knowing full well that they have been allowed in the past as jokes and were understood to be so is perhaps what incensed some into starting the 15 + other threads about it.

MmeLindor · 24/10/2013 22:14

I also want to give public kudos to Rebecca who held her own, with her usual grace and aplomb, dealing with all of this. I would have lost my shit more than once last night

Yes, Tee. Absolutely agree.

bsc · 24/10/2013 22:14

Ha, BOF! Maybe if we requested it under FOI?

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