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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 25/10/2013 18:03

I'm sensing some cat shit bitterness there Carpe Grin

ColderThanAWitchsTitty · 25/10/2013 18:05

would I get a message to let me know it had been done?

No Dame they don't let you know unless you are way out of line I believe.

I've been reported a few tiems but no one said anything, just noticed later it had been delted. The problem is sane most posters won't bother to report PA on themselves but goady fuckers always seem to. WHich skews the stats.

I do my best to report shitty pa posts for that reason if I think the person is a goady fucker

Pan · 25/10/2013 18:05

I'm feeling Carpe's pain. Have invested in an air rifle.

PatoBanton · 25/10/2013 18:08

Oh could I just say I'm not Fright.,

just in case, I used to have it as a nickname sometimes, around this time of year (flight etc)

she seems very nice though Halloween Smile

CarpeVinum · 25/10/2013 18:13

I'm sensing some cat shit bitterness there Carpe

GoadyFucker · 25/10/2013 18:23

[[
]]

GoadyFucker · 25/10/2013 18:25
Grin

('tis me Zing really]

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 18:39

Grin i was hoping AF would use GoadyFucker when she came back!

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 18:41
Grin
Jux · 25/10/2013 18:46

Hmmm interesting.

So "I think you are displaying cuntish behaviour in this instance." might be deleted.

"you're being a cunt" probably will be, and "you're a cunt" definitely will.

Unless you have more to say which absolutely has to go into that actual post, you might as well save your time and just call a cunt a cunt.

Have I got that right?

TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/10/2013 18:51

Depends who you are, Jux.
Not because MNHQ aren't consistent, but because they respond to reports and if you're a poster who has enemies the enemies will be following you around looking for anything they might get to stick. I think for those of us who are mostly under the radar it's probably worth taking the extra seconds to circumlocute.

Scarymuff · 25/10/2013 18:59

Oh the irony.

One of the posts I reported was not deleted because: "they were challenging the user's posts rather than attacking the poster themselves. We believe that claiming someone's post is patronising is referring to their overall posting style, but to the individual post."

AF's post was removed because she claimed someone's post was passive-aggressive.

So there you, go. Different strokes for different folks.

BasilFucker · 25/10/2013 19:04

Have just read Leavenheath's post of around 4PM (the long one) and it has depressed me.

I presume that the "orthodoxy" on the relationships board that MNHQ is so concerned about, is the position that many posters hold, that women should not put up with abuse or disrespect and that we will point it out where it is obvious and not minimise it like the rest of the world does.

Where women are living in abusive situations, our culture and probably everyone in RL, minimises it and tells them it is their fault. By the time they post on MN, they have usually been putting up with masses of emotional abuse for a long, long time. Posters in the relationship sections do what the rest of the world won't: validates the experience and feeling of the OP tells the truth about abuse: that is is never justified, never "provoked" and never the fault of the victim.

It is distressing and disgusting beyond belief, that MNHQ would have a problem with such an "orthodoxy".

Have I got the wrong end of the stick? Am I misreading this? Because I find this more than anything really worrying.

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 19:22

Off on a bit of a tangent...

Are PAs only PAs if they are against a poster?
I'm not generally on any sleb threads, this has prob been answered many times there! Grin I'm assuming that would count as a PA, esp because of libel potential? What if its not a real name though? Someone who writes under a pseudonym maybe? If that wouldnt count as a PA, then what is the big difference between that and talking about (but not to) a poster?

How about historical figures? "Henry the eighth was a cunt" is that a personal attack?

I want to be absolutely clear to make sure I am never deleted for something I thought was okay.

ZombieZing · 25/10/2013 19:22

Jux

yes. you can't call a cunt a cunt.

or a Fucking cUNT

but what about FUNT?Grin

HettiePetal · 25/10/2013 19:23

AF's post was removed because she claimed someone's post was passive-aggressive

No. She called the poster passive-aggressive. There is a difference.

And I am genuinely stumped as to why you keep posting c/p's from the posts that are still on the thread (and you've done this in more than one place) to try and prove that AF was only commenting on the posting style. I repeat - the posts that got her suspended are the ones that you cannot now see.

Clearly she began by addressing the posting style, and then let it get personal. Not wise.

It is distressing and disgusting beyond belief, that MNHQ would have a problem with such an "orthodoxy"

Anyone reading the relationships threads can see that things are nowhere near as cut and dried as you are trying to make out. Very often, given that no poster (other than the OP) is in full possession of the facts, there are a number of different points of view & opinions that can be helpful. The problem is, once the party line on the thread has been established (usually by the better known posters, of which AF is only one), anyone veering from that can often find themselves rounded on.

This does happen - quite often. Sorry if you don't like that, but quite a few people have noticed. Even MNHQ have.

For you to turn this into: "Well, how disgusting that MNHQ are objecting to the "orthodoxy" of telling abused women to leave abusive husbands" is an appalling & staggeringly unfair slur. They've been very clear about what they meant, stop seeing what you want to see.

The very best thing that could happen to this site is MNHQ having words with those well-known, prolific posters (and there's one in particular who frequents AIBU) who have set themselves up as troll-hunters. This particular person, for example, almost never actually contributes to the discussion, instead simply shows up casting aspersions either at the OP or various posters & manages to create a nasty, suspicious tone - and their "troll-hunt" is usually completely wrong.

It's not their place to police the site like that, that's what the report button is for and they need to be told.

It's people shrieking "troll" or "goady fucker" that are the real problem, frankly.

.

FrightRider · 25/10/2013 19:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lazyjaney · 25/10/2013 19:28

What Fright said.

Reprint · 25/10/2013 19:30

AM I really the only person who thinks the PA term is a bit over-used.
And that actually a bit of passive aggression can be a lot easier to accept that outright aggression.
I'd rather someone asked me if I was having a bad day, than called me a cunt.

Just a thought.

WereTricksPotter · 25/10/2013 19:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/10/2013 19:34

PA can mean passive aggression or it can mean personal attack. Usually it's the latter on Mumsnet because that's what's against the rules.

Scarymuff · 25/10/2013 19:34

AF's post was removed because she claimed someone's post was passive-aggressive

No. She called the poster passive-aggressive. There is a difference.

No, Hettie she didn't - here is the quote I am referring to:

Charity I wonder if you realise how condescending your bolding of quotes followed by a passive aggressive "answer" looks ?

She is clearly not calling the poster passive aggressive, she is referring to the posting style.

And I am genuinely stumped as to why you keep posting c/p's from the posts that are still on the thread (and you've done this in more than one place) to try and prove that AF was only commenting on the posting style. I repeat - the posts that got her suspended are the ones that you cannot now see.

The quote is from the post that was deleted.

I can understand why you are confused though because it really does ot sound like a personal attack does it.

garlicfucker · 25/10/2013 19:53

[like] Scarymuff.

BeyondPissedOffAtTheWorld · 25/10/2013 19:57

I have just tested the "long-detailed-report-as-to-why-I-think-this-poster-may-just-be-shit-stirring"... Probably won't be able to let you know how it goes though, as the thread will be full Grin

RebeccaMumsnet · 25/10/2013 19:59

Hi all,

Apologies for the radio silence this arvo. Justine has been out at the BBC 100 women conference all day, which is why she hasn't posted not because she was being a scared cat and sending the muscle Rowan in.

In response to a few Qs:

We have no evidence to think CFD is a troll - more of a different poster. We have dealt with CFD in the same way would would anyone else and mailed them.

@THERhubarb

Apologies if this has been addressed already but Justine, yesterday a poster started a thread about how ADHD was all made up. That thread was deleted so the poster started another thread. Amy came on to say that the second thread would also be deleted and they would contact the poster to let them know why.

I want to know why that poster, who was clearly out to offend and cause upset, wasn't then banned? Or even suspended? How can it be that a poster can start 2 inflammatory threads in the space of an hour, have them both deleted and yet be free to start another one?

I don't know if that poster did start another thread or is even contributing to threads today (I hope not) but if you can go back to take a look at that I would be very grateful.

Hi Rhubarb, I will take a look into this one now.

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