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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:38

What clique mentality is that?

I rarely go on relationships, this is about what is fair and right.

ThreeTomatoes · 25/10/2013 16:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

meekenough · 25/10/2013 16:39

Actually the clique element IS a huge issue and needs to taken very seriously or mumsnet will become a horrible hostile environment where only one POV is allowed.

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 16:39

What is MNHQ doing to prevent people with malevolent or misogynist motives from targeting individual posters, or the relationships and feminism sections?

Banning them AFAIK. Numerous posts from Rowan say that. They're on it.

JustAnotherFucker · 25/10/2013 16:39

There is a prevailing view of LTB on the relationships board, far too many keyboard warriors for my liking. iRL it is accepted that separating is a drastic step that needs serious consideration, but on here it seems people are never happier than with the drama of a live split - almost as good as a live birth thread it seems. It's nasty.

Imo this is a crock of shit. The sort of shit peddled by men who expect women to put up and shut up, or by women who currently are Hmm

In RL people - predominantly women, are expected to put up with all sorts of crapness before Leaving TB.

In my own situation I thoroughly believed that I would be a failure as a person/parent if I left my abusive relationship.

Thank fuck for MN and posters who made me see that really it wasn't my shit to carry.

So I LTB.

And life improved no end. I even have a reasonable ex's relationship with him now.

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:40

I have not made a single comment on CFD and her part in this.

meekenough · 25/10/2013 16:42

Relationships not so much, it is one of the better places.

Fem board, Chat, AIBU , huge, HUGE problem that needs to be dealt with,you can't possibly not have noticed it there?

The only things some posters need to get off their chests is other posters skid marks..Grin

MmeLindor · 25/10/2013 16:42

Welease
to be fair, it was quite clear that CFD was up to mischief, and she is loving being called names.

Quite a good days work, for a troll. To cause this much upset, with valued and well-respected posters being banned, or de-regging from the site.

DameDeepRedBetty · 25/10/2013 16:43

A query.

If someone reported one of my posts and HQ decided to delete it, would I get a message to let me know it had been done? I've never had such a message, although I always get an acknowledgement, sometimes generic, sometimes personal, when I report posts or threads. Does that mean I'm very dull and boring an all round lovely person who's never broken the Rules and is always very sweet and nice and helpful and generally totally Pollyanna-ish? Grin

Or is because I regularly send Gin to Tech and the rest of MNHQ?

meekenough · 25/10/2013 16:43

who's CFD?

usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 16:43

What are you on about?

What clique element?

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:46

No, meekenough, I haven't.
What I have seen is people who 'know' each other chatting.

What does that mean, about the skid marks? Hmm

MilllyMollyMully · 25/10/2013 16:46

But MmeLindor, who defines whether a poster is valued and well-respected? Valued and well-respected by whom?

everlong · 25/10/2013 16:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 16:48

Yes,Everlong.

It's one big mess.

It's not pretty is it.

Is it drink time yet?

Shakey1500 · 25/10/2013 16:49

Ye Gads what a palarva!

Utter mass hysteria.

I think AF dishes out some good advice.

I equally think some is not so good advice.

But at the end of the day, it is one poster who has broken the guidelines. Action has been taken. Which is MN's prerogative and sounds like they had been fair up to the point of no return.

AF herself acknowledges it was on the cards.

Then all hell breaks loose. Posters seemingly whipped up into an utter frenzy based on false info and goodness knows what agenda.

MN is forced to respond including stats for perspective. Which whilst probably needless in the grand scheme of things wouldn't have happened had there not been such an uprising.

What a shame all round.

Twighlightsparkle · 25/10/2013 16:50

I personally think , people need to leave these threads alone now, move on.

There seems to be loads of going around in circles and speculation.

It's happened.

Isabeller · 25/10/2013 16:51

I have a suggestion and hope this is the right place to make it. If it worked it might enable slightly more self-modding.

I think I would like a choice to 'Query post' as well as Report/Message poster options.

This would work so that a icon showed on the post header to show it had been queried and my message would go to the poster and to MNHQ.

I would be able to send a personal message like 'You've put some rather personal/identifying information in that post, perhaps reconsider?' or 'Your post seems like a personal attack on X, are you sure you want to do that?'.

The poster would then have the option to delete (or perhaps edit?) their post or reply to me saying eg 'I stand by what I said' (the initial query icon could then disappear or show that a response had been given). MNHQ could see the exchange.

It would be a way to have a quiet word with someone without having to ask teacher to sort it out. I imagine people being deliberately unpleasant would ignore or reject queries making it easier to decide to report.

I realise the idea of allowing posters to edit or delete their posts has been considered and perhaps this is too complicated and would result in unnecessary clutter.

I really hope something good comes out of this unfortunate situation and I have every confidence that AF will have the dignity and good sense to return if she wants to and not otherwise.

Leavenheath · 25/10/2013 16:52

MN is forced to respond including stats for perspective.

No they weren't. That was a choice made. There were other more proportionate responses rejected in favour of doing that.

Loopytiles · 25/10/2013 16:52

The poster AF was suspended for "attacking" (actually troll-hunting) was a troll.

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 16:55

Mumsnet have never posted stats before.

Shakey1500 · 25/10/2013 16:56

The point being, MN needn't have responded in any way at all had there not been a gazillion threads and calling for blood. Way OTT imo.

Leavenheath · 25/10/2013 16:57

Which was an option open to them, like I said in my first post on this thread.

LtAllHallowsEve · 25/10/2013 16:59

AF was valued and well respected by other values and well respected posters. That's good enough for me.

The only cliques on this site are the established groups, like the Brave Babes, The Nobdies, The Stately Homes gang and so on - and even they are welcoming to newbies.

What you have on this site are "friends" some just virtual, some IRL too.

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 17:00

All those threads should have been deleted with the message that the poster was not here to defend herself.
It is a message they have used before now.

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