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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why we temporarily banned Anyfucker and what next

1005 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/10/2013 21:18

Hi all,
So as many have pointed out there are an awful lot of threads about AF from last night and today, many of them repeating the same stuff, some of them including misapprehensions.

So we thought it best to state our position on the matter fully here and to lock the other threads so anyone with stuff to say can say it here and it's all easier to follow. (Apols for any difficulties you've had in following all this because of multiple threads - we don't normally allow them but in this case, as there was a fair bit of MNHQ conspiracy theory floating around, we thought it best not to start deleting things today).

So first why did we ban, or more accurately suspend, AF for a week?
As already stated AF did break our Talk Guidelines a lot wrt troll-hunting, PAs and generally aggressive behaviour.

We have looked back and found we've sent her nine mails of the 'please stick to Guidelines or we'll have to take further action' variety and we've banned her once before. There have been c. 600 reports of her posts - and there are 1100 cases in our system concerning her one way or another (not including any name changes). We've deleted
posts under the name 'AnyFucker' 185 times (some of those reports will be duplicate reports of the same post, so it's not that we've deleted 185 out of 600 posts reported).

It is not the case that most of these posts were in response to trolls, plenty were against folks most would agree were regular posters. Others were against folks she thought might be trolls but we could see were not. Some were against folks who were subsequently banned.

We haven't actually been able to forensically analyse each of the 600 cases - it really would mean going back through each thread - but we will over the next little while if folks think it necessary.

Some people have been calling for an auto-ban mechanism for posters who are multiply reported - if we had one of these AF would have been likely banned a few more times than she actually has.

We wrote to AF a couple of weeks ago after deleting some of her posts warning that if she crossed the line again we'd have to suspend her and that's what we did yesterday. She wrote back to say she knew it was coming.

We don't take these decisions lightly wrt Mumsnetters who've been contributing for so long and whom we know so well. We agree AF's a fantastic poster who goes out her way to help others but we're not talking isolated incidents here and it's very often not directed at actual trolls. Often we're talking about aggression/personal attacks/accusations of trolling against other Mumsnetters who AF disagrees with.

Plenty of people today have cited examples of this type of behaviour. Some have also spoken of an orthodoxy on the relationships board which is difficult to diverge from and which puts them off posting there. And of course, plenty of others have cited examples of AF's kindness and support on those same boards.

But what would you really have us do? Ignore the PAs against Mumsnetters? Ignore those posters who report such PAs to us? We are not talking exclusively PAs on trolls here. If you've been following today's threads you have to accept that. Believe me, we have not been trigger happy here. The last thing we want is for AF, or posters like AF who offer so much to Mumsnetters, to leave MN. But we have a few rules for very good reasons we think. Without them, Mumsnet would be incredibly insular and one dimensional and very unwelcoming to newcomers. We have to accept that if folks can't live with those rules then, ultimately, that's their decision.

I think it's worth saying what we do believe in, here at MNHQ, because although the site has grown, these values (if that's not too aggrandising) really haven't changed since it started.

We believe that the pooling of knowledge and advice makes parents' lives easier.
We believe in tolerance of differing opinions and in letting the conversation flow wherever possible.
We believe in listening and engaging and being transparent as much as we can.

We do have things we don't tolerate (which have been honed and refined over the years by collective user experience) because we think they are less likely to promote the things MN values. Namely personal attacks, deliberately inflammatory posts, posts that break law/hate speech.

We will also delete things that are downright mean and obscene (though clearly this is a matter of judgement).

We have never billed MN as a safe haven. It is open and searchable and public so can never be as safe as a closed, heavily moderated or pre-moderated environment would be.

It is a largely female space and we think that is incredibly valuable in a male dominated internet/ world. But it is not an exclusively female - it's by parents for parents and it always has been. Men are welcome to post and to express their opinions and we've had many valuable male Mumsnetters over the years.

Quite apart from anything it would both be impractical and possibly illegal to have it otherwise.

Obviously there are things we at MNHQ can do better. We are never going to be entirely consistent in our moderation as we are human and it often come down to fine judgement calls. And we apologise in advance for inconsistencies but can only say we really do try our best.

In the case of this ban/suspension, as many have pointed out, we could have communicated what had happened and why more quickly and more clearly.

Some people have suggested a clear, more widely known "sin bin" procedure and we'll certainly look at that.

We will look at resources and response times generally to reported posts and are working on empowering all HQ mods to post on the boards and to be transparent as possible. (NB this would be easier if HQ mods felt they could post in an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding Grin.)

We do put a lot of energy into investigating and banning trolls. We don't make a fanfare every time we ban someone for obvious reasons - trolls are here for the attention. But I concede that maybe that adds to the atmosphere that we are tolerating/ignoring/doing nothing about trolls. So we will think about that.

We don't have any auto suspend in place but we might look at that based on a large amount of reports of a particular poster.

And as suggested by someone (apols have forgotten who) we'll hold an MNHQ mods webchat with me, Rowan and Rebecca on Friday 8th at lunchtime and will open a thread in advance, so anyone who can't make the chat can post their question.

Please, of course, post your thoughts and further suggestions here before then, or whenever suits.

Sorry for the very long post - thanks to those who've read to the end.

(We'll be locking all the other threads in the next little bit.)

OP posts:
Shakey1500 · 25/10/2013 17:01

I have no strong feelings eitherway for AF but I wonder whether she will be thankful for the support or mortified at how this has turned out.

MmeLindor · 25/10/2013 17:02

Twig
Yes, you are right. It isn't helping anyone now.

MNHQ have said they will do a webchat to talk about moderation, so any suggestions perhaps best left till then when all this has died down.

valiumredhead · 25/10/2013 17:03

Dame-I've had a couple of posts deleted, I'd only been here a few weeks and a poster was spouting all kinds of crap and I called them on it. I'd just come from a site where we used to delight in 'troll hunting' and hadn't realised the rules here. I didn't get s message from HQ, my messages were just deleted.

Scarymuff · 25/10/2013 17:06

Just in case anyone missed it, this is an example of what HQ have deemed personal attacks and the reason that they gave for the ban.

They were posted by AF to CFD on that thread and were deleted for breaking talk guidelines.

Charity I wonder if you realise how condescending your bolding of quotes followed by a passive aggressive "answer" looks ?

You can of course post how you like, and I am sure you have your own ideas about my personal style, but I thought you ought to have a chance to change it so you look a lot less like a bossy know-it-all

Now if HQ think that is PA then fine, it's up to them. If that is the case I have a lot more posts to report and will continue to do so, as advised.

everlong · 25/10/2013 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/10/2013 17:11

Maybe now MNHQ has published the number of reports against AF they should also publish who they were by and how many by each person. Only fair.

OnemorevoiceforAF · 25/10/2013 17:11

Leavenhealth is right. A number of us have made the same point up thread- namely that the mn response should never have been so personalised, with details of someone's posting history.

That has not been addressed, in response.

Scarymuff · 25/10/2013 17:11

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 25-Oct-13 09:22:29

We're afraid we disagree with you, ScaryMuff, that AF's posts on that thread weren't personal attacks. They called CFD 'passive-aggressive', a 'bossy know-it-all', and talked about her 'officiously self-important posturings'.

Thank you for clarifying the kind of language that can get a poster banned.

Loopytiles · 25/10/2013 17:12

I wonder how many of the reportings of Anyfucker were by trolls....

FrightRider · 25/10/2013 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 17:13

Poor AnyFucker.

I hope she's ok.

If you are reading this Wine for you.

usualsuspect · 25/10/2013 17:15

I must say I would be stomping around cussing MN if I was her Grin

reelingintheyears · 25/10/2013 17:16

Shakey, she is mortified and not a little upset.

More Wine from me too.

PoppyAmex · 25/10/2013 17:17

Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, I'd say that nine warning emails before a temporary ban is pretty indulgent.

Furthermore, AF herself acknowledged it was a fair decision, so I think everyone should move on - I think the more we talk about this the harder it AF find it to return, which is a shame considering the amount of posters who would miss her contribution.

BerstieSpotts · 25/10/2013 17:18

I don't think it's about "MN can't win". I think Leavenheath was spot on and it was far too personalised.

I just don't buy this "People were saying we were unfair!" - HQ, you run the place! You're perfectly entitled to make decisions that people find unfair, and you don't have to go to such lengths to justify them. I have to agree with posters who have said that I've never seen a poster's history repeated in such a manner. MNHQ are usually tight-lipped about trolls, let alone valued regular posters.

Sparklysilversequins · 25/10/2013 17:19

There's been some awful trolls and thoroughly nasty pieces of work on here over the years, Daftpunk anyone? Who really hurt and upset other posters with their deliberate and vicious posting style. Yet I have never seen them be held up to ridicule the way that AF has been. I think it's outrageous that her private posting history has been made public to secure MNHQ's position.

It is also clear that Rowan is the most popular member of the MN team amongst many MN users so has been wheeled onto this thread to placate us all, Justine hadn't been back since her OP. It feels very much like manipulation to me. Oh and then the fishy one turns up too to blur focus even further and give us a "we are all in this together" feel.

MN has helped me through some desperate times over the years I have been on it it's a great place and I have always felt it to be a safe space as long as you mind your P's&Q's, maybe AF didn't, maybe people did overreact to her "suspension" but I think the ways it's been handled and how she has been scapegoated is disgraceful, self serving and cold.

But at least we all know where we stand now.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/10/2013 17:19

Ummm, I think MNHQ closed the door on AF coming back when they posted her report stats, Poppy.

FrightRider · 25/10/2013 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarpeVinum · 25/10/2013 17:22

there would be no need for special sitewide Anti Goady Fuckers initiatives if we all had our own HidePoster button

You don't need to be on the managment/tech team of one of the more sucessful and huge community based sites to know that when a widely used feature has failed to generate an insta answer to trolls and "personality conflicts that spill out on thread with depressing regulariy" everywhere else.... it is unlikely to be the answer here either.

"Hide poster" creates sureal or "random sounding" threads for people using it where all the other posters are rasing to bait. Which they often don't find enjoyable and pleanty give up on it for the sake of a thread that at least doesn't make half the posters sound like they are have a one sided row with themselves.

"Hide poster" tends to be no match against the grassroots PM/Email/Off site chatter about who siad what to who on what thread. Curisity gets the better of people and they flick hide poster off to not miss what is going on. For all the saddness/irritation/disappointment expressed.....Big Keffuffle posts like troll infested dog piles and site politics blow ups tend to be those which attract masses of attention cos enough people kind of enjoy the excitment/outrage! aspect to at least some small degree. Which means people get unhidden just around the time their posts are about to become most troublesome. And because there was a hide poster button there was les onus placed on developing stratagies that DO more often make a positive difference.

The only thing that really works is to ask normal posters to do what trolls/nasty types are despised or not doing. Ie Exerting self control and fighting the urge to whip the gloves off to scratch the itch.

Where it is considered "poor form" or a "newbie error" to engage with trolls/atention seekers, peer pressure tends to provide a degree of protection against rising to bait and encourages reporting dodgy posts. Which in turn shrinks the power of a troll/nasty type to control the tone and direction of any given thread. If instead of MNHQ saying "please report/ignore" more higher profile posters were to join MmsLindor in talking the talk and walking the walk..... the goadyfucker issue would take a significant hit in terms of "how much this is an issue for normal posters".

Wanting to deny trolls/nasty types the chance to dictate which way the converation goes is totally reasonable. And within the power of the bulk of posters to procur with a reletively simple stratagy of starve/report.

BUT

Wanting to not to see many undeleted "reg respecting" mean spirited posts, or not wanting to sometimes have to put up (in silence, behind gritted teeth and white knuckles) with unbanned "tip toe around the regs" trolls in action is not a reasonable expectation IF the poster's preference is a for a large, public, high profile forum that employs very few rules/light hand style of modding.

Becuase that is have cake and eat it territory. There has to be a degree of accpting the rough with the smooth.

StarlightMcKenzie · 25/10/2013 17:22

Oh FFS, This is all ridiculous.

I liked MN before all this. I liked them during all of this, and I like them/it now.

Loads of us feel the same I'm sure and cba to read let alone post on this thread.

WorraLiberty · 25/10/2013 17:22

I've got to say although me and AF didn't always see eye to eye re LTB stuff I've always liked her and i can't help but feel for her now.

Same here everlong

But I also feel sorry for Porto because there was obviously some sort of miscommunication between her and AF.

Somewhere along the line it can't have been made clear to her that AF wasn't banned at all, and had only been suspended for 7 days after many warnings.

She said upthread that she's going to de-reg because of all this. I hope she changes her mind.

Twas all just a storm in a teacup.

FrightRider · 25/10/2013 17:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StarlightMcKenzie · 25/10/2013 17:25

'with valued and well-respected posters being banned,'

They weren't banned for being well-respected (and that is arguable in any case), they were banned for breaking the rules.

Sleepyfergus · 25/10/2013 17:25

Agree with Shakey. I've read some Of these threads and it seems to have escalated beyond sanity. MNHQ have had to reply in the detail they have to put it all into perspective.

It appears that AF is a valued poster to many, but at the same time has flaunted the rules and has had to be reprimanded appropriately. The trouble with trolls etc is their lack of history. They come on, stir up shit and then leave. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think Justine's response and MNHQs stance is correct and everyone should just move on.

Personally, I for one am sick of reading about it, or seeing yet another thread title clogging up the active convos. Thank god they've been locked down!

Mintyy · 25/10/2013 17:25

I think its rather extreme to say that AF has been "hung out to dry". I cannot see any reason why she should not be able to come back. I don't understand why it took so long for clarification that it was just a week-long suspension to get through, mind you.

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