Madmouse's open letter to MNHQ about the treatment of those with disabilities on MN

[madmouse]

Dear MNHQ

I joined MN when I was pregnant with my lovely ds. That heady autumn with bump before such words as NICU, neonatal seizures, brain damage, cerebral palsy, speech delay, special school entered my vocabulary.

That was 5 whole years ago - and all that time MN has been a part of my life. Got a lot of support from my ante- and postnatal buddies and from experienced SN mums. Gave back where I could. Became ill with PTSD, found the MH threads, recovered, started to give support on the MH threads.

Now I've come to the point that the only thing stopping me from leaving MN is that I would let down people on the MH threads. Other than that your (MNHQ) behaviour today has been an eye opener and a bit of a final straw.

MN has become, like RL, a place where disabled people and people with disabled children are not safe, not treated equally and not extended the same courtesy and respect as those without disabilities.

What happened today is just a tip of the ice berg. Day in day out threads appear with the same old theme. AIBU to use this disabled space because my baby's maxi cosy is too big and the P&T spaces are full, AIBU to use the wheelchair space on the bus (those two appear weekly by and large), AIBU to think it's nice to be disabled because you get lots of benefits, AIBU to think disabled people have it easy, AIBU to think I should have a free car too seeing as that I pay taxes.

It goes on and on and on. And none of it is ever challenged other than by a small group of us who do all this fighting in RL too - because it affects us and our children.

There is such thing as discrimination. And you do have a duty to stamp it out. Hand off moderation is no excuse certainly seeing how quick you were to delete 2shoes thread when some of us started fighting back against the endless threads of threads which in turn are copies of last week's threads.

I am very disappointed. And I think you have some thinking to do.

Best wishes

I understand your frustrations ladies. But there are many uninfomred people out there. Deleting comments which are disablist, inflamatory, rude etc is good. But here is another analogy here. People get images deleted off Facebook, with no explaination why. So what happens? Generally they make a big fuss about it and why was it deleted and it gets much more attention than it was due. And there may well have been a good reason within guidelines for it's removal. Explaining why - even with a simple link gives some form of answer and hopefully stops some of the song and dancing and stuff which offends. An FAQ could develop over time as an organic thing as and when new things present. But it could be useful and something MN perhaps consults with groups affected with to draw up some good factual based info on some of these issues which so often upset those affected / insulted. Often in the heat of a thread it is hard to properly articulate in one place the truth of the matter without the red mist descending.

If MN towers had an FAQ section for these type of things which come up again and again, particularly those regarding discrimination which have a footing in law, clarifying the legal rights and wrongs of such a thing (e.g. Use of a Wheelchair User space on a bus) and suggestion of how as a Buggy user such a space may be utilised in the absence of a wheelchair user and what to do when one presents themselves and you are in situ.) then people could be pointed to that - and then you hard battling SN members need not feel constantly called upon to fight the fight in quite the same way.

Clarification of lots of things could be listed in an MN FAQ section, things like the use of the word wheelchair to specify someone who is a wheelchair user - not a rolling piece of metal which offers freedom to a person who uses it - could be addressed, and again - posts whihc use that or other disablist, racist etc comments could be deleted with a link to the relevant FAQ answer.

People are not going to stop asking these questions, because this is a forum for parents, and some of them are coming up against issues and events which are new to our fields of experience and inevitably that leads to questions and the need for answers. Simply because someone is uneducated does not mean they are evil or trying to be so. It means they need to learn why they are wrong. And often like the lady on the "should I have folded my buggy and got off the bus" thread they are making an attempt to understand what the right thing should have been. The whole thing turned into a huge bunfight - and someone when feeling under attack is bound to want to to justify why they did what they did - and then it offends so many people with folk taking sides and sympathising with different camps etc. Really if the lady had been given a succinct piece of information which told her YABU, this is how the law stands on the matter, here is how you should and could have acted in that circumstance and the thread closed that would be that.

It might over time make it easier for MN towers to manage and balance the need to support members who feel discriminated against as well as educating those who might genuinely want to be educated without making either party feel sidelined, dissaffected or insulted.

Really sorry to have waffled.

Maybe people don't realise they are being Disablist, they genuinely mean no harm, what they say does cause harm or offence, so it is Disablist. Ripping the Piss out of spelling, when someone said they are disabled in an op for example. Demanding to know someone's medical history is Disablist is another example, disabled people deserve privacy and dignity and should not be made to explain to every tom Dick and harry. It is hard enough to forget about it and try and lead a normal as possible life without the indignity in rl on online to give your medical history, to state you have a disability should be enough.

'sadly I'm just someone who through many years of advocacy in various areas of life know that objectivity is the only way to get an argument across'

Higgle
I'm a lawyer with many years experience of appearing in court and representing clients in other venues too. Well versed in logical arguments and bringing points across. Quite apart from the fact that I reserve the right to be emotional where it concerns my own child and his place in society, being emotional by no means robs me of my ability to validly argue my point. In fact I've won my best cases when being emotional about a matter.

I think you are right - often people don't realise what they are saying is offensive and it can get out of hand very quickly. Wether they are intentionally in sulting or not, I don't think it should be left up to SN members to constantly need to educate on this but that MN should do something practical about it. After all enough is enough for these members. It is often for those who are offended the straw that broke the camel's back and responses can become very heated, how could you not be angry when it is the 100th time you have had the same conversation or corrected someone for a derogatory usage of a word or phrase - wether insult was intended or not. It often leads to defensiveness from the person who has said the wrong thing and it all gets gets out of hand. If MN wants to support thier members they need to find a way of doing so that is a little more pro active - but does not leave the ignorant basking in thier ignorance.

Definately no disabled person should be grilled on the nature of thier disability. Like you say it is bad enough having to cope with prying in rl.

MNHQ may not be back on here for a while.They are often short staffed at the weekend .

madmouse,if you get no joy from MNHQ,you could report them to a newspaper.

Or threaten to sue them for discrimination.

Justines newspaper of choice seems to be the Guardian.I am no expert in newspapers.I would suggest that you pick a newspaper that is opposite to the Guardian,whichever one that is.

Sharklet, something similar has been suggested on another thread, also that the thread should have a link posted to the relevant page and blocked off - ie no more posts.

What do people think about that?

It's hard if people have no disability experience for them to get how hard life is in rl. The struggle for things like at present I am on a pre op diet. I have to read the food list every time I eat incase I forget, I will remember, I just can't remember when I need to if that makes sence. I have to write each thing I eat as I eat it. That is one example. Life is hard, you want lightness and joy as much as you can get of it when ever you can.

I do think people need education, like they did with other discrimination issues, how what is not meant with harm, can cause harm.

Yes thats what I said earlier. Link to FAQ clarification - thread closed. End of.That way not fostering a space for the red mist and dredging it all up.

I agree with Fanjo and Custardo. The recent threads have really bothered me because there is an absolutism about the 'acceptable' opinions which doesn't seem to allow anybody to make an individual choice or have an individual case by case view. Then the debate has moved on to this larger one with a group of posters claiming what amounts to persecution - and yet on all the 'bus' threads the same posters were themselves ignoring apologies, making accusations of trolling and goading and talking about making lists of those who expressed any other view.
I think this has all got way out of hand and mnet HQ is being unfairly accused of prejudice.

Here they come.

proving the point there somewhat, amillion

ASillyPhase, I do see that it's hard for people with no experience of something to speak with any real authority on it. One would assume that they would then be listen to those who more than enough experience of that thing. Ask questions, sure, but to just go on thinking up more and more scenarios which come down to the same question, is pointless, and in the case of those threads was definitely goading.

It's not a question of opinions and points of view.

"Wheelchair users have priority over all other passengers" - TFL - is an absolute.

When someone starts a thread querying that absolute, she is undermining the principle and undoing years of activism. Can you not see that this might make quite a lot of people justifiably angry?

Mnet HQ's position is that people can put the OP right and the thread is therefore educational. However, I am afraid that what people might have learned from the thread is that they are not alone in thinking that the principle does not apply to them, because of their particular circumstances, and therefore they have no need to obey the signs. Especially, as it now emerges, not all bus companies will enforce the disability legislation.

So the end result of these threads may well be disablist, in that it makes the position of disabled people worse than before.

It wasn't long ago a lot of groups had to educate and get respect, I have hope the situation will improve for those with needs too.

I think the idea mentioned earlier with links to an explaination, sounds like a good idea. To close a thread would not be required, posters would adapt.

Caters and those with disabilitys would I am sure give input to help mn get something sensible together.

it would also be good if mn didn't support threads that are started to inflame and then the op does a bunk.
then comes back starts another and then does a bunk.

Come on - she posted asking a question, a flaming ensued, she went away, thought about it and came back with considered comments - in which she said she would act differently next time - and she still got hammered. Can we really be surprised she didn't stay on the threads? It's not really on to designate anything we don't agree with as 'designed to inflame'. The reaction to the bus threads shows that a lot of people do not understand the complexity of the needs that wheelchair users have. Some people do not get that a wheelchair user may be stuck at a bus stop indefinately if able bodied people don't get off their arses and make changes. Those people absolutely need to understand that. Understanding those wider needs and principles does not mean that you must ignore the nuance of a situation. Nor does it mean you must endlessly lambast people who make mistakes or who were not as well informed as they should be. I don't believe there was any need for the first thread to get to 1000 posts. This argument has run away with itself. God knows I understand the dog with a bone feeling. I've done it myself plenty of times - you keep hammering on but it's counter productive. Shedloads of energy goes in and all that comes out are deeper holes for us to sit in.

there have been 4 threads, 4 threads full of this shit.
makes me as the parent of a child who will always be in a wheelchair fell wonderful to see this shit.
but we can't say anything if we do we are told basically to suck it up by mn hq.

When were you told to suck it up?

ignore I have promised myself I will not let this stuff get to me now, if I can ever think of a new name I will go and hide under that.

I agree with Fanjo, Custardo and NorthernLurker.

They have expressed most eloquently what I have failed to.

Hopefully as they are known and respected others will listen.

2shoes,I have gone to the Nobdies for now.Tis nice and calm in there.

The very fact that an adult asks the question on the original post is so fucking depressing as to beggar belief.
It is - at it's most basic level - a moral question.
An able bodied person should give up their seat for a disabled person.
And no! I don't think having young children is a disability!
Perhaps very well educated people (like custardo)have different morals to the rest of us plebs?
Perhaps that's it?
Jeez....

yup thats it exactly, my morals are so shitty i come on a thread and call other peoples morals shitty

Did I say shitty?
No.
I said different.
Don't put words in my mouth.