Madmouse's open letter to MNHQ about the treatment of those with disabilities on MN

[madmouse]

Dear MNHQ

I joined MN when I was pregnant with my lovely ds. That heady autumn with bump before such words as NICU, neonatal seizures, brain damage, cerebral palsy, speech delay, special school entered my vocabulary.

That was 5 whole years ago - and all that time MN has been a part of my life. Got a lot of support from my ante- and postnatal buddies and from experienced SN mums. Gave back where I could. Became ill with PTSD, found the MH threads, recovered, started to give support on the MH threads.

Now I've come to the point that the only thing stopping me from leaving MN is that I would let down people on the MH threads. Other than that your (MNHQ) behaviour today has been an eye opener and a bit of a final straw.

MN has become, like RL, a place where disabled people and people with disabled children are not safe, not treated equally and not extended the same courtesy and respect as those without disabilities.

What happened today is just a tip of the ice berg. Day in day out threads appear with the same old theme. AIBU to use this disabled space because my baby's maxi cosy is too big and the P&T spaces are full, AIBU to use the wheelchair space on the bus (those two appear weekly by and large), AIBU to think it's nice to be disabled because you get lots of benefits, AIBU to think disabled people have it easy, AIBU to think I should have a free car too seeing as that I pay taxes.

It goes on and on and on. And none of it is ever challenged other than by a small group of us who do all this fighting in RL too - because it affects us and our children.

There is such thing as discrimination. And you do have a duty to stamp it out. Hand off moderation is no excuse certainly seeing how quick you were to delete 2shoes thread when some of us started fighting back against the endless threads of threads which in turn are copies of last week's threads.

I am very disappointed. And I think you have some thinking to do.

Best wishes

I kind of see where mn are coming from, as today I got a letter which will be published on 4 July from ASA, and looking at the decision I can see its a thin line mn are walking.

I feel so sad for the posters who are taking a break, I hope a middle ground can be found.

@amillionyears

Can you answer a question please,Justine In your heart of hearts,you do not want to delete anything do you? You want to be "innocent facilitators" as I mentioned sometime yesterday.

No that's completely wrong - we delete thousands of posts a year that break our guidelines. You're confusing our thoughts on defamation with our moderation policy. I think users should have the rights to defend comments on defamation if they wish. As it stands we are viewed as publishers and routinely delete comments that are complained about as libellous. In this instant I think we should be viewed as "innocent facilitators" not publishers because otherwise it has a chilling effect on freedom of speech. We've been part of the libel reform campaign for some time and I wrote about it here five years ago and the position hasn't changed.

We are absolutely delighted to delete posts that are racist, disablist, deliberately provocative, personal attacks or otherwise downright nasty, as per our rules.

I haven't read all the thread (sorry) but I just wanted to say that I have the utmost respect for anyone dealing with disabilities (their own or someone in their family/group of friends etc.)

I have very limited experience with disabilities but lurking on MN for several years has opened my eyes to how incredibly hard it must be day in day out, not just dealing with the disabilities per se, but dealing with the general public and the general public's attitude. I find some of the attitudes on MN absolutely disgusting.

@2shoes

I think it is so sad sad madmouse has left, and others as well. It is a shame that the in crowd think this is all so funny they start a thread taking the piss out of my thread!! nice of mn hq to join in as well.

We weren't joining in "taking the piss" of you though, 2shoes. There are truth be told many threads about how crap we are all the time. We joined in a funny thread about that phenomenon and I thought I was taking the piss out of MNHQ with my response...

I, 100% think that BOF was taking the piss. The 'in crowd' as 2shoes called them, do it all the time. They post about thread on fb and then appear on them on mass and take the piss, or have a go at the OP!

It is far more than a coincidence that that thread has appeared today IMVHO!

Sorry ,Im not bright or learned enough to understand what you posted.
I will have to read up about what you have just said and get back to you.
It may take me a couple of days.

I don't know about that thread re fb.

I do know there are posters who link to mn threads on fb.

post 13.21 to JustineMumsnet

@amillionyears

Sorry ,Im not bright or learned enough to understand what you posted. I will have to read up about what you have just said and get back to you. It may take me a couple of days.

Sorry the libel laws are quite complicated it's true.
Put very simply, in answer to your direct question.

It's not fair to say we don't want to delete anything or moderate Mumsnet. We delete a lot and are happy to delete things that break our rules

our rules in a nutshell are:

No personal attacks
No posts that break the law
No trolling, goading or misleading
No trollhunting
No spamming

Where it becomes trickier is posts which don't obviously break the law but cause offence nonetheless.

Madmouse just in case you are still here can I just tell you something? This is what I posted on the other thread - actually I have kind of lost track which thread but it was a 2shoes thread...

"Well 2shoes I for one am someone who HAS been educated by you on these recent threads. When I started reading the double-pushchair-twins-vs-wheelchair thread, I was probably on the fence... now, I am a complete convert and complete supporter, and I have (I hope) a better understanding of the issues and problems facing disabled people and wheelchair users. I think you have made me a better, more compassionate person."

Madmouse - you, as well, have made a real difference. If/when you do leave, please know you have made a difference, even if it is only to one person. Thank you for doing that.

I wasn't talking about you Maryz, I am sorry if I upset you.

Well said but why do you read them? Sit in any pub tonight and you will hear all sorts of racists, anti gay, slagging off awful conversations. Would you actually go over and become involved in them? Of course not - so why involve yourselves in others predjudice conversations on MN?

MN is just chat - its not life and death, for many its not even reality. If there are parts of MN you like then keep visiting and ignore the haters.

I posted on that thread.
I didn't read it as anything other than 'fuck me it's tough on here ATM, let's mess about'.
I had opened mn with lots of stuff including the thread in feminism about that section wanted to be renamed, a technical thread called something like mnhq are you there, why can't I ' and I had been up late reading bollocks about people not having to vacate spaces for wheelchair users because why the fuck should they.

My reaction to this sea of grimness is occasionally to laugh in a 'if you can't laugh you would shoot yourself' way.

I was responding to the way the whole board is reading - a tidal wave of shit and nastiness and frustration - and the idea that mnhq is in the middle trying to referee.

I wasn't taking the piss out of any individual. I certainly wouldn't take the pissout of 2shoes or madmouse.

I am pretty sad that it has been assumed I would intend such a thing. I usually get snarked at for being too mouthy about issues involving disability.

I saw madmouse did the leaving thread in mh, she may get the message that way, as she asked for.emails etc.

@ASillyPhaseIAmGoingThrough

I don't know about that thread re fb.

I do know there are posters who link to mn threads on fb.

There's not much we can do about that tbh except to remind folks that we're here to make people's lives easier not the reverse.

Here is an idea. I belong to another online forum where inevitably the same misguided questions will be asked again and again (completely different subject matter) and rather than leave it for the same old twaddle to come out again and again, and rather than simply ignore the fact that this OP is wrong and could do with educating... the moderators have come up with a selection of FAQs that use quotes and info from former threads on the subject, as well as backing them up with access to either law or guidance on the subject from particular bodies. This allows the moderators to link to this, and close the thread to further comment. Allowing it not to inflame people who are simply sick of preaching the same rhetoric over and over, and avoiding more ignorant and misguided commentsbyquestions those who are simply unaware of the truth of the matter.

Could something like be a workable solution? one where education is given to those who clearly need it, but noone is insuoted or discriminated against or rightfully frustrated in doing so?

Apologies, my handy smart phone is not so smart and keeps adding strange words to things....

'Well said but why do you read them? Sit in any pub tonight and you will hear all sorts of racists, anti gay, slagging off awful conversations. Would you actually go over and become involved in them?

Sometimes yes. Wouldn't you, if for example the topic of conversation was that your beloved child was a scrounger? After all I have to try and change the world to suit him better as I am not immortal enough to do it myself.

Of course I really AM aware I can be a sanctimonious PITA- I did a degree specifically because I was annoyed with some racist bigots I encountered at work, and my MA is very linked to SN. I don't mind being that PITA, indeed it's one of the things I like about myself, an apparent inability to sit by and witness injustice (lots of thing I don't like too of course, today that would primarily be my ability to hoover up cake intended for the school fayre!).

WRT to the other thread I did see it and think of shit timing; I didn't thing it was intentional because I have some level of faith in the people on there, through MN and FB chats over the years.

Pag

I posted on that thread and I certainly wasn't taking the piss out of anyone. I'm not on FB and I'm certainly not part of any crowd, in or otherwise.

Hear hear to madmouse and 2shoes - I take the easy way out and hide the threads :/

I really like sharklet's idea.