DBF banning thread, part 2.

[Rhinestone]

OCCUPY MUMSNET continues......

Justine, that was a little topical joke, please don't ban me!

Mumsnet has a responsibility to 'look after' its users if it is promoting itself as a site to support parents.

DBF had no way of knowing if she was posting to someone with mental health problems, or bereaved, or elderly or with learning or communication difficulties. People make much of the 'abrasive' style of mumsnet and I like it on opinion threads but 'The Doghouse' seemed ostensibly for well meaning people seeking advice - it must have been a bit of a shock when they started a thread and were carpeted.

LRD: 'DBF, for all her possible faults whatever you think they are, is not cynically winding people up. Yet she is banned. Bob/Edd were, and the ban took a very long time coming.'

the ban for DBF was a long time coming too. she has had repeated warnings, a temp ban before now, and countless deletions for being aggressive and OTT.

I don't think it is helpful to try to equate the two.

I do agree that there have been issues with the feminist topic being trolled, but I do also think there have been issues with perceptions of a party line too.

what is clear from al of this is that yet again posters are stating repeatedly that they do not htink the rules are applied consistently. it is coming up time and again, for a variety of reasons and topics - disability rights, feminism, the doghouse, aibu.

imo, the biggest problem is that there is (overall, not talking about any one topic/poster) too much aggression. too much 'fgs '. far too much ipatience and ' can't you read? this has all been said a hundred times before'.

yes, repetitive questions get boring. yes, posters ignoring advice can get frustrating. but there is no need to dive straight in with the aggression, usually. (obvious trolling for impact aside). self-moderation within the site does not work. we have all seen aibu threads where the tone is set by the first few responses, and then eveyone else piles in. if someone tries to point out that the OP didn't mean it that way, or might be getting too rough a ride, all that is posted is more sneering, more 'don't let the door hit oyur arse on the way out', more 'this is MN. it's not NM - no fluffly bunnies here', and so on.

there is so often a competition to be the first to react, or to be the worst swearer, or the most sneery. and that is a shame.

overall, MN has to have rules and guidelines. and MNHQ have to take action if they feel those rules are being flouted all too obviously.

I suspect so many posters who are supporting this decision have not read many posts in The Doghouse. I have been a very regular poster/reader there since May and it is a lovely part of the site. Puppies are very much welcome irrespective of where you got them from. Valhalla/DBF was remarkably constructive and helpful in our New Puppy Owners posts and I even sent her a PM to thank her for her help when I got my new puppy NOT from rescue.

A few posters are jumping on a bandwagon here by reading a few of DBF's posts and make a sweeping assumption that her frustration, passion and directness is aggressive. I have never seen her as aggressive just frustrated by some people's complete and utter foolishness. People are failing to even acknowledge the thread whereby she has massively helped someone - look at the thread where a lady needed to rehome her dog, and the dog was rehomed within 48 hours - DBF was hugely instrumental in that.

I have seen far far worse from regular posters on many threads in AIBU but they get away with it. This really strikes me as favouritism to some and feels very much like Justine wanted any excuse to ban DBF. I have read some of the threads where people have been told by DBF that what they are considering is wrong and the flouncing is amusing when they have been told they are wrong, I can just imagine them hitting the report button! However you only have to read a thread where someone is allowing their child to be mistreated and the uproar, personal attacks, aggressive posting, name calling, swearing is way more than DBF has ever done.

This is really sickening that DBF has been made an example of in this way.

What sgm said...

I have been in The Dog House and try very hard never to go there at all now.

Yes, there are friendly posts but there are definite No Go subjects where, instead of helpful advice, you get aggressive lecturing.

The feminism section is dead on it's feet at the moment- FAR less busy than it used to be, precisely because of trolling and personal victimisation of posters off-board.

The eyerolls and fgs's are usually reserved for those who post the same misogyny over and over again.

just saying.

Or because lots of people that wanted to join in got scared away...

And yes, to what Amy said. it's driven AF out of there, ironically, and silenced several other users. but we're still the unreasonable ones

I don't recognise many old regulars in there though, hullygully. And many people who say they have hidden the topic weren't people whose names I know from that topic, so what you are saying might explain why the section hasn't got any bigger, but it can't explain why it's got smaller.

I also think some sections develop a sort of 'orthodoxy' which means when a well meaning newbie jumps in for advice on weaning four month old or buying a pedigree puppy, they are jumped on.

I really like the feminism section but posters started to respond to genuine queries with the phrase 'what about the menz' in a very way and talki g about MRA and I thought ' this has disappeared up its arse' and didn't post for a while.

I agree with Spamspamspam, and I just don't recognise the picture of the Doghouse and of DBF that's being painted here.

It's not a place where it's considered universally bad to breed (isn't there a regular poster who breeds Golden Retrievers and is very well-respected and liked, not least by DBF herself?) or where people are attacked for wanting to buy a puppy or needing to rehome (there are many examples of posters being advised and supported with these things, again with DBF herself usually being the foremost of those offering help).

Yes there are a few issues that get robustly debated, e.g. dry food vs the natural 'raw' diet, how long it's acceptable to leave your dog alone for etc, but those tend to be no worse than the debates in other areas of the board.

The people who get a proper flaming are those who are wilfully ignorant of the consequences of their actions, and put dogs' welfare behind their own desire for convenience or profit (or in this particular case, their need to create attention-seeking drama).

Well, as someone who recently got a dog within the past year, I have to say I have rarely posted in TDH because of the comments and the aggressive tone - it seems you are unable to own a dog unless it has been rescued, from a no-kill rescue, that it should be a staffie ....anyone else is very often completely shouted down -

in fact there was a wonman looking to get a new puppy after a bad expereince, was an experienced dog owner who wanted a smaller dog and she was completely inundated with shouts of rescue/sBT/ older dog... and any other comments just pushed aside.

Its not the welcoming, caring, empathetic, sympathetic and supportive area it should be....

So if DBF banning helps to change the tone and that breat holding when you post in case she comes on then all the better.... IMO

I'm sure there are posters who've posted in Feminism, or the Doghouse, or AIBU, and had a bad experience and not come back. Actually it seems to be very common in AIBU.

I am not sure what it achieves to keep repeating that these sections are scary and there are loads of intimidated posters out there, unless you're one of those posters. It just comes across as being rude about the feminists, not as being defensive of the (purported) scared posters who don't return.

I've been lurking and umming and ahhing and generally tying myself in knots wondering what to say.

Thank goodness therefore for CalatalieSisters

LucyStone wrt "misogyny" - I've heard that term misused again and again on MN. Misogyny and sexism are not one and the same. I've seen people being accused of misogyny when all they're guilty of is a bit of ill-informed sexism that could be easily challenged. It's that kind of thing that puts people off the Feminism topic imo.

Wow, this place really is a way of life for some isn't it?

When I first joined I thought MN was huge, but it's clearly a very tight/small community but with a massive impact on the lives of the users.

I'd expect DBF to be pleased with this response but at the same time I'd also expect her to take heed of the negative comments, whether they were founded or not.

I have also decided that when I see someone being helpful, or saying something admirable I will report the post (in a positive way) to MNHQ to balance out the negative reports.

Often someone is only ever brought to the attention of others when it's negative. I work on the basis that good news should be shared.

I hope that's ok Justine I just feel that if you were aware of the good stuff then you'd be better equipped to make decisions...

Galaxy... I've sometimes 'spoken up' (or supported someone else who has) and somehow managed never to be roasted for it. I don't quite get why people are scared to do this.

It depends how it's done. People do come across as sanctimonious when they use words and phrases like "you lot", "MN at its worst", etc etc. But if you say "I think it's out of order to say blah blah", then it tends to be more favourably received.

cant be bothered to read 52 pages, so please bring back dbf, she is lovely and helpful and goes out of her way to help people even when they have created their own messes despite advise. I always believed this to be a place that encourage passion, free speech and sometimes that can get heated. doghouse will be a very empty place if the ban stands.
dbf if you are reading this I hope you see how many people who have inspired,, helped and touched.

@LRDtheFeministDragon

Justine - I do appreciate that, don't think I don't.

I can see that must be depressing for you to hear - but it was pretty depressing to be constantly reporting posts or threads about being told that 'just' a few wind-up threads, just a little bit of rape joking, just a few (hundred) deleted comments weren't really enough reason to ban. Meantime, a load of shy posters look, think 'argh, this is scary', and run away. I don't see who it helps.

Morning all.

LRD, I sincerely hope no one at MNHQ every responded to your reports using phrases such as "just a little bit of rape-joking". We would, frankly, be astonished if anyone had.

I would like to read the open letter on DBF's facebook page but canno find her. Can anyone do a linky for me?

Agree with that grimma - i often speak up for someone who i think is being badly treated on a thread, sometimes people then disagree with me, more often though others agree that its all gone a bit far or whatever.

Nothing to be frightened of in speaking up. And I certainly dont think we need moderators or moderator-lites to keep an eye on us.

No, you didn't use that phrase, and I didn't mean you had - sorry, I thought it was obvious but you're right it's not. I usually use quotation marks when i want to quote.

I did feel, at the time, that that was rather the attitude. I was - and i said I was- really upset that HQ didn't ban Edd after that joke. I still can't understand it. It did feel dismissive, to be honest.

I know it's not easy for you and you don't always have time to reply with more than standardized responses. But it does sound dismissive if I get the same reply for reporting something like that as I get for reporting someone on a bad day resorting to 'you twit' type stuff.

Can I just say that I agree completely with Jeremy's post at 10.18 except I would have added a few more FOR FUCK'S SAKES for good measure.

It was so obviously a joke about AF's name. SO OBVIOUSLY! How can people not realise?

I appear to have become a frothing beserker over this issue