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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

DBF banning thread, part 2.

999 replies

Rhinestone · 08/11/2011 00:05

OCCUPY MUMSNET continues......

Justine, that was a little topical joke, please don't ban me! Grin

OP posts:
LucyStone · 08/11/2011 10:37

I do think that a short message explaining why a post has been deleted would help. we had an issue a few weeks back where i fell into a disagreement with a poster. i had a post deleted, and 500 posts later, i was having to defend myself against it, despite not knowing what I'd said. after requesting info on it, it turned out mnhq had misread a word in my post, and by doing so the whole message changed. it's also easier to apologise if you realise why you looked unreasonable that way.

DarknessSoothes · 08/11/2011 10:40

LRD will pm you later, thanks, computer is being stupid and I need to deal with rl for a bit.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/11/2011 10:41

NoOnes - well, I think they'd help. I may well be wrong.

I think the problem is that anything new HQ does will require even more time and effort, and they already have a big site to manage. But I do feel the Bob/Edd situation was so badly managed - so many people still don't seem to have come back after that. And it is a shame IMO.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/11/2011 10:42

darkness - I'll look forward to it. Smile

LucyStone · 08/11/2011 10:45

I do see where noone's coming from. I'm thinking along the lines of more misunderstood posters and trolls, for example. had dittany been on a visible warning, edd or Dan would have been on a one man mission to get her banned.

JeremyVile · 08/11/2011 10:46

Ah yes, Pan. I see you were far more succinct and managed to get your point across without all the swearing.
I shall take notes.

LucyStone · 08/11/2011 10:48

Do i need to take my seat on the naughty step again?

Pan · 08/11/2011 10:50

ha!

< i did swear quietly to myself, thro' force of Glasweegie habit...>

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/11/2011 10:51

But had Dittany (or you, or me, or anyone) been on a visible warning, we would also have known where we were. It seems as if the whole section is being treated as if we're all on a warning, but no-one has told me what's wrong with my posts. That sounds really self-centred, but the point is it's a little difficult to control how a couple of hundred other people post ... all I can do is control my posts. And I have no idea whether or not they're the problem. At least a warning on the thread would let everyone know this stuff.

JeremyVile · 08/11/2011 10:52

I think the discussion LRD is having re the feminist section is a very important one. And its important its done on-board.

It is exactly that sort of exchange that will no longer happen if Justine is harangued into watching every word and held to ridiculously puritanical standards.

I WANT to see MNHQ challenged on this sort of thing, I WANT to see their reasoning and I WANT to (continue to) feel that they are open to debate on how things are done.

HQ cant please everyone, but if they are made to feel they cant have open, frank and yes, sometimes irreverent discussions with us then the site will become somewhere I no longer wish to post.

Pan · 08/11/2011 10:54

yeah but then they become a visible target - and it sounds sooo much like being made to stand in the corner so everyone knows how naughty you have been. I was 'banned' from a particular section a while ago. Fine.
People 'know' where they stand - they are told so.

LucyStone · 08/11/2011 10:55

Lrd, that's why i suspect a pm would work better. i may be wrong, but it'd make this weeks target less obvious to the trolls

LaurieFairyCake · 08/11/2011 10:56

Hmmmm....... it seems people are allowed to be more forthright when someone (relationships DV) and dogs (doghouse) are at risk of harm whereas when it's JUST a theoretical discussion (feminism) people can be much ruder.

Is that right???

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 08/11/2011 10:58

I wrote a long post on the previous thread, and hit 'post' just as the thread filled up, so my wise words were lost for all eternity. However, I shall try to remember them, and to type fast enough that I can post them before this thread fills up! Grin

I posted on the original thread to say that I felt that the tone overall was bullying and unpleasant, and that I felt that that was counterproductive - as others have said, you are far more likely to get someone to listen to your advice if it is being given without a huge side order of anger (though I absolutely understand why someone who does the work that Vallhala/DBF does would feel angry).

I saw the thread when TLES got the dog, and was so strongly advised to give it to a rescue centre, and having spoken to TLES about it, and read what was on that original thread, it was my opinion that she did improve the dog's circumstances and quality of life substantially - even though she didn't follow all the advice she was given.

I also think that she has been honest enough to say that she now thinks that it may not be the best thing for her to keep the dog - and this provided a perfect opportunity for someone to persuade her to rehome the dog via a respected rescuer, but that this opportunity was lost in the general rush to leap on her with anger and with some nasty personal remarks too (saying she was probably dirty - had filthy fingernails and speculating about her punishing her child).

It was very clear to me from TLES's thread about rehoming the dog that there was a general belief that there was only one way to successfully rehome the dog - and that was DBF's way. Posters on that thread suggested that the new home in Hertfordshire was a total invention (to cover up the fact that the dog was being pts - implied by saying that 'going to a farm in the country' was a way parents used to lie to their kids when a loved pet was pts). No-one stopped to consider that TLES might have found a suitable new home for the dog - instead, on absolutely NO evidence whatsoever, it was assumed that the new owners would be at best, entirely useless and would end up rehoming the dog sooner rather than later, or at worst, that they were puppy farmers or worse. It seemed more important to attack TLES than to give any credence to the idea that she might just have given some time and care to deciding how to rehome her dog.

I think that the best advice given on the original thread, which was sadly lost in the flood of anger, was that TLES should rehome the dog to the people she had found, via a recognised and experienced rescuer, who could work with the dog before rehoming her, check the new home and new owners, and provide ongoing support afterwards, taking the dog back into the rescue if the rehoming did not work.

I don't think DBF was the worst offender on the deleted thread. I have seen other postings by her that are helpful and supportive, and tbh, have not seen the postings that have caused MNHQ to warn and ban her in the past. I do think she has a lot of useful information, and has obviously done a lot to help posters on here before, and if she could accept that she needs to tone down her approach a lot more - because that will make it far more effective - then I would support the call to reinstate her.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/11/2011 11:00

I think the trolls are very good at targeting with no help. And I think that making it all visible would also be good because it would show MNHQ are being fair. There's a link in Feminism atm to a youtube vid made my someone who was banned by HQ, and he obviously thinks that HQ are rabid feminists who all gang up. We know they actually put a shedload of effort into arbitrating and (IMO) acted if anything too late.

Besides, I would rather know I am going OTT so I can stop, rather than have people say 'oh, I can't post there, it's scary'.

GypsyMoth · 08/11/2011 11:01

I think we need to ask ourselves if DBF would even WANT to come back??

I'm not so sure she would

DandyLioness · 08/11/2011 11:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StewieGriffinsMom · 08/11/2011 11:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pan · 08/11/2011 11:04

just seen custy's post re ripped stockings and no knickers in Manchester on a Saturday night...............I think there is a place for self-disclosure Custy, and this isn't it.Smile

LucyStone · 08/11/2011 11:05

Hence the pm option, Lrd. i think in-thread would be too problematic.

NoOnesGoingToEatYourEyes · 08/11/2011 11:07

LDR - perhaps they will. I was wondering out loud more than anything else.

Another possible pitfall of visible warnings is that if someone does get one, others will immediately start to demand to know why X received one and Y didn't, or justify what X said and demand on behalf of X that the warning is revoked etc. They could prove to be a lot more work and a very big thread hijack, or they might not. Again, just wondering out loud.

I agree with you about MNHQ and their work, time and effort.

FWIW, I don't think they would ban anyone without careful consideration or as a knee-jerk reaction to just one comment. Justine has already explained that there were a number of warnings and one previous ban in this case, so even before the threads asking for an explanation a lot of time had been spent by MNHQ on this case.

I'm feeling quite sorry for Justine actually, it's not easy to go on any thread and say something that is then immediately taken up by lots of posters, each of them with a question or an argument or an example of why you are wrong because of something that did or didn't happen somewhere else or reminding you of something you once said or didn't say or a suggestion for what you should do next etc.

If they do make this change it will perhaps mean some extra work for MNHQ and for each person who finds it helpful, another won't like it. It reminds me of the saying that went around Facebook when they made one of their infamous changes: "I'm upset because a free website I am under no obligation to use has made a minor change that doesn't affect me." No matter what MNHQ do or don't do about this, someone will think it should have been the other thing.

And in this case MNHQ are in a bit of a lose/lose situation. Stick with the ban and they have a lot of people complaining about them being inconsistent and not listening to their users.

Revoke the ban, for the second time, and from then on face accusations of favouritism or unfairness or allowing bad behaviour from popular users while penalising unpopular or quieter members or having one rule for one person and another for everyone else.

It's not a decision I'd like to be making today and it could mean repercussions for MNHQ for months to come if this situation happens again.

LucyStone · 08/11/2011 11:07

Sgm... you forgot Dan and James... I'm sure they're lurking...

and pan, behave... Grin

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/11/2011 11:07

Fair enough, we disagree.

D'you think we need to put disclaimers up now? "This disagreement, brought to you by a couple of feminist posters who're faffing around online at 11am, was not staged. We really do disagree. No dogs were harmed in the making of this online diversion."

StewieGriffinsMom · 08/11/2011 11:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LucyStone · 08/11/2011 11:10

We obviously need that... Grin haven't we been accused of all being the same person yet?