a chance for the SN community to tell you how it really is and to tell you the horrid stuff they have to deal with

[2shoes]

all the time..
after the horror of the other thread, I think it would be good for the sn community on mn to tell their stories, when they have been harassed/assaulted/ and abused by the nt world.
night help to put a couple of minor incidents that someone in the nt world has had to put up with for a very short space of time.

so I will start ....
we were subjected ot haye crime for 5 years....why because my ds fell out with them when they called my dd a spaz.
we can't go out without the staring...small children blocking out way in the shop, whilst mummy/daddy does nothing, just so their child can stare at dd, who is shock horror in a wheelchair.
my son was bullied at school by nt kids who took delight in calling dd a spaz.

mie are minor compared with most.

My 3 boys have Ehlers Danlos hypermobility type with DS1 being mildly affected (just a bit bendy), DS2 being unable to walk 30 yards without falling over and DS3 being somewhere in the middle. I have had people saying I shouldn't have had DS3, that DS2 is a drain on society, that we were lucky to get a "free buggy". I declined any help from social services in 2009 because having to beg for some limited support every 2 months was so depressing and DS1 was referring to to the disability social worker as "the lady who makes mummy cry". I have been moaned at because DH didn't come to all the appointments (at one point we were at appointments more than we were at home and DH works full time). Moaned at because if one of the boys has an appointment then the others come as well.

DS2 is growing out of his buggy and needs a wheelchair. I've lost count of the number of times a proffessional has said that they don't know how to get him one but they will refer us to someone who will, and then the new person doesn't know either. DS2 has been called a baby, lazy etc for being in a buggy. I think this will get worse in september when he starts school as it will be more obvious how old he is.

Claw4 That's the problem though. At the end of your training you're told you're the professional and that as such, you have (and are entitled to) a professional opinion - even if that opinion is not based in any fact or expertise. .

In fact, your last posts have just reminded me that we also had a lecture in which we were encouraged to listen to parents because parents are the true experts in their own children.

You wouldn't believe the whispers, raised eyebrows and the comments that parents are only parents and don't know their children as well as the teachers. As a parents when I did my training, I was really surprised at some of the comments being made. These generally came from the child-free young twentysomethings. In fact, we spent as much time being taught about SN as we did being told that parents know their children better than we will - obviously there are occasional exceptions to this. Unbelieveable really!

I did say in my course feedback to the course director that there wasn't enough SN training. I participated in some research on the quality of teacher training to influence future training and I said the same there. When I started my NQT year and filled in my personal target bit in my CPD folder, I put SN training as one of my needs. I wanted it recorded in as many places as possible. Other people on the course said similar. I suppose we can write to the government, but would they even listen?

I did ask for more training. I had a look through the whole NQT training booklet for the year so that I could circle any I was interested in. No SN training was offered. I do know of an NQT at a different school (in a different LA) who was sent on some pretty comprehensive training regarding the SN of a child in her class. She was well supported by the school and LA too. So it's not all bad news.

I can't believe you had such a hard time, but it certainly shows the amount of damage that can be caused. Most teachers go into teaching because they love children and, rather like their parents too, and want what's best for the children they teach, but it's a lack of knowledge and understanding that causes so many of the problems. Especially when it carries the weight of being said by a 'professional'. I know from reading threads on here how much damage is caused by people making assumptions about parenting approaches etc in the cases of children with ADHD/ASD, etc.

I suppose it comes down to Donald Rumsfeld's known unknowns and unknown unknowns. If you don't know that you don't know something, how can you begin to know it?

2shoes - doesn't surprise me. Lip service.

The same legislation that they quoted for removing the trans thread (sorry to keep relating the two, it's just that it highlights the difference in attitude!) applies to threads bashing people with disabilities.

By their logic, the other thread should not have been deleted, merely had any posts deleted that specifically broke legislation.

I used to be all for educating people but I'm tired of it now. There's only so much you can take while you're trying to educate people.

Now I think the education they need is being told to shut the fuck up with their stupid ignorant attitudes.

I would like to see zero tolerance on here for bashing people with disabilities. That educates very effectively.

Folkgirl, i dont think the problem lies with teachers such as yourself, but with the teachers who truly believe that they are experts after a half day training and that they DONT need more training. In fact as i said you are a breath of fresh air, i think you are the ONLY teacher i have encountered who has actually been totally honest. Exactly as you say, if you dont know, that you dont know something, how can you begin.

Ideally it would be compulsory for teacher to have more SN training, rather than you will pick it up as you go along with the more sn's you encounter, some probably do pick it up with experience if they have a open mind, such as yourself, but for others same as above.

A good way forward might be for teachers and parents to unite with regard to this and work together, parents think more training is needed and so do teachers, but then we go back to above.

I am the poster (well I was as hathorinareddress69) who posted the legislation and my understanding of how it applies (not a lawyer but have an understanding) on the trans thread.

I can do the same here if you would like?

Because since disability is a protected category, as trans is, all the points that were made WRT trans also apply to disabled people.

Claw4 Thank you. But I would also hope I'm not in too much of a minority! Although, I know that a lot of people do think that a half day training in anything makes them an expert.

I suppose, looking at it from the trainers perspective, there are so many SN, and so many variances in symptoms etc, what works for one child might not work for another and all that... that it would mean comprehensive training for all SN would be unfeasible. For example, to become a teacher of the Deaf, you have to do a further certificate/diploma after you have trained as a teacher and got QTS. It wouldn't be possible to make everyone knowledgeable in every area.

But yes, making teachers realise that a half/whole day amounts to little more than 'awareness' than 'training'/expertise would certainly be a step in the right direction. I agree, that teachers and parents uniting with regard to this would work. But then how many parents with the required expertise would be available to consult with training providers, or deliver training.

this is the equality act 2010

It outlaws discrimination on the basis of a number of what are called "protected characteristics"

These are

age;

disability;

gender reassignment;

marriage and civil partnership;

pregnancy and maternity;

race;

religion or belief;

sex;

sexual orientation.

MN is a service provider.

WRT this I believe the relevant section is the section on harassment :

Section 26 of the act states :

Harassment

(1)A person (A) harasses another (B) if?
(a)A engages in unwanted conduct related to a relevant protected characteristic, and
(b)the conduct has the purpose or effect of?
(i)violating B's dignity, or
(ii)creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B.
(2)A also harasses B if?
(a)A engages in unwanted conduct of a sexual nature, and
(b)the conduct has the purpose or effect referred to in subsection (1)(b).
(3)A also harasses B if?
(a)A or another person engages in unwanted conduct of a sexual nature or that is related to gender reassignment or sex,
(b)the conduct has the purpose or effect referred to in subsection (1)(b), and
(c)because of B's rejection of or submission to the conduct, A treats B less favourably than A would treat B if B had not rejected or submitted to the conduct.
(4)In deciding whether conduct has the effect referred to in subsection (1)(b), each of the following must be taken into account?
(a)the perception of B;
(b)the other circumstances of the case;
(c)whether it is reasonable for the conduct to have that effect.

It is also important to note that under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997, harassment is
Prohibition of harassment.

(1)A person must not pursue a course of conduct?
(a)which amounts to harassment of another, and
(b)which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.
(2)For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other

Also :

References to harassing a person include alarming the person or causing the person distress.
(3)A ?course of conduct? must involve conduct on at least two occasions.
[F1(3A)A person?s conduct on any occasion shall be taken, if aided, abetted, counselled or procured by another?
(a)to be conduct on that occasion of the other (as well as conduct of the person whose conduct it is); and
(b)to be conduct in relation to which the other?s knowledge and purpose, and what he ought to have known, are the same as they were in relation to what was contemplated or reasonably foreseeable at the time of the aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring.]
(4)?Conduct? includes speech

Does any of this essay help at all?

claw Yes it is islolating and, frankly, humilitating, when a NQ teacher who had known your child for 4 weeks thinks they know them better than you.

I dont have a PGCE, admittedly, BUT I am absolutely the expert on my son and have been for nearlyh 9 years and as such have a pretty good idea of his abilities and issues!!

.....this is the same teacher who told me that I "might have to accept the lowest sets are where ds1 belongs" btw! How can they "write off" an 8 year old child like that????? Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy!!!

Strange then that since going into Y4 he has made significant progress in all areas...

Also there can be "group harassment" it doesn't need to be about a specific individual.

And the home office produce a series of guides in PDF format which are great and very easy to read.

See here for example

this is very good

And shows that "Disability harassment is unwanted behaviour related to disability that has the purpose or effect of violating a person?s dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them."

Hope that helps

What I think is hard for teachers to grasp is that if your child has SN, you are forced to become the expert, pretty damn quickly. Just to survive. So although many parents may not have great understanding of their child's behaviour and what makes them tick, SN parents often have incredible clarity on both the child and the condition, which they will have to read up about to the point where they probably know more than the person who taught the half-day course the teacher did on SN at college.

You can't treat SN parents like you do NT parents (ie well-meaning but not educational experts). Of course there are exceptions but a lot of SN parents know shedloads.

My DS is 7 now, and has autism. He is still in pull ups and still doesn't sleep solidly during the night. He needs constant supervision and reassurance. He doesn't like change. He can sometimes make funny noises, he likes to literally 'bounce' off the walls. NHS wheelchair services have just replaced his special needs pushchair (a maclaren major) with a kids wheelchair.

I got punched in the stomach the other morning because the cat was sat on one of his many pieces of paper. I have been slapped for simply looking at him. I have woken up to find him sat next to me in my bed, trying to open a toy's battery compartment with a kitchen knife, or woken to hear him unlocking an external door. (Obviously all doors are alarmed, and my kitchen drawers are now safety clasped, but basically i have to be CONSTANTLY vigilant).

Last year we found out from a kind child in his class that the majority of the class were laughing at my DS and teasing him - because he is still in pull ups.

I have had people loudly asking me what's WRONG with him. Heartbreaking to hear for a child who takes everything literally and now thinks he is 'wrong'.

I have had people loudly discussing lazy children and lazy parents, whilst I was sat with him on the bus, him sat in his maclaren major.

Within minutes of being in a park/playground/soft play - other children will have zoned in on my DS, and he will be in tear from being teased or injured. It's like coyotes picking on the weakest member of the herd. Brutal. He has been punched, kicked, pushed from a climbing frame ladder, etc. No fecking wonder he's always anxious before we leave the house!

I have to pay through the nose for him to learn to swim as he needs a 1:1 teacher in the pool with him as he has no sense of danger, and has behavioural issues.

I have no social life whatsoever - no evening childcare for a 7 year old who needs changing and doesn't happily go off to bed and go to sleep.

Then there is the staring. Every where we go.. adults and children. Staring all the time like he's an exhibit in a zoo.

So glad I missed the other thread, but that's awful 2shoes :(

We've had 4 and 5 year olds taking the piss out of my 5 year old because he can't talk and their parents standing by and not doing a thing about it. For several year, a particular boy has repeatedly got right in my 8 year old's face and shouted hello at him, then his parents have got all shirty and complained that their DS can't sleep at night because my DS won't respond. For those who don't know, both of my DSs have ASD.

I'm grateful that they're just blips in an otherwise welcoming community, though. I've had people i barely know helping me with one boy while the other has a meltdown - and it's turned out that they know all about us. So there are good people out there.

It only takes one or two ignorant, uncaring people to make life hell for someone vulnerable though :/

r3dh3d I agree completely.

r3dh3d

that's what has happened to us with the SENCO at DDs school.

she has been very obstinate and obstructive in setting up any sort of support for DD as we were referred to CAMHS via our GP, not via school.

she brings the fact her pre-school nursery didn't forward any records over before DD started school at every opportunity (nursery have since told me they aren't allowed to do this unless it's requested, i'm actually going back to them this afternoon to collect the paperwork myself ) - so unless you have a big sheet of paper saying 'expert' on it, she don't wanna know

Sigh. SENcos are teachers (hopefully!) who have been on a course.

They are not the fount of all sn/sen knowledge I can assure you!

I just dont bother with them anymore...I concede there must be decent ones out there but in rl and on MN I have never heard of one.

There are so called experts like OT's, physios, ST, doctors, paediatricians who still ignore parents expertise and observations. I spent 5 years telling these 'experts' my dd was bright. 5 years when she was denied services. I fought to get her into a mainstream school and to be allowed communication equipment (she cant talk or move) and now its proved that not only does she understand, she is incredibly bright.
These so called experts are also now denying her services such as physio, a chair that fits and postural support despite the fact that she is deteriorating physically because the services here are so over stretched and lacking. Her deterioration will lead to her death. I'm expected to watch her die. I hate the world today.

Folkgirl, true there are so many sn's and variance in symptoms etc, this is why the emphasis should not be put on teachers opinion, but left to the experts. But a teachers opinion often carries more weight than a parents, as their views are deemed unbiased or even experts, as the responsiblity of whether to follow the recommendations of experts is purely down to the teacher. So even if teachers report 'no difficulties' and that child is still diagnosed, the diagnosis is pointless as the teacher who reported 'no difficulties' then will not apply the recommendations!

Parents are by no means experts in all sn's but usually an expert in their own child, i am regarded as a 'nuisance' or 'over anxious' for wanting some input into writing of IEP's for example. I am never consulted, despite my asking to be involved, i am just handed an IEP, im not even asked to sign it!

Maybe its not training, maybe its finding a decent teacher with an open mind.

have to say everyone who deals with dd (apart from the LAC reveiwing officer and the SW)
treat me as an expert in dd, even though they have know her for years.
and also have to say all professionals are not bad, dd has brilliant support as school, not only from the teaching staff, but the Ot, phiso , SALt and all the others.
(just saying all are not bad)

Becaroo, i agree totally parents have a very important role to play, if only we were listened to.

Its so frustrating, when i speak its like im speaking a language school dont understand. I think there is a big difference between NOT understanding and NOT WANTING to understand. Thats the difference between a good and bad teacher in my opinion.

here we have another shit thread

Hathor - thank you for that. I hope that mnhq will see that and will treat anti-disabled threads in the same way they have demonstrated they will treat other topics.

2shoes, do you think the difference in our experiences of school and professionals etc is due to some disabilities being physical or severe enough to be very obvious and others being more 'hidden' disabilities?

Claw4 Well I think that's it isn't it?

But a teachers opinion often carries more weight than a parents, as their views are deemed unbiased or even experts, as the responsiblity of whether to follow the recommendations of experts is purely down to the teacher. I think you've summed it up completely.

You've also got to consider that without access to the person who made the recommendations, even if the teacher wants to/tries to/believes they are following the recommendations. Unless they understand why what they are doing is relevant, it's difficult to implement something effectively.

I'm surprised you don't have to sign the IEP. Do you have the opportunity to discuss it at review meetings?