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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Secondary Appeal

112 replies

gillybean2 · 18/06/2010 10:19

My ds's secondary school appeal is on Monday and I'm after some help please! If you can help on any of the issues below, or give me any further arguments I can bring up, I would very much appreciate it. This is long I'm afraid, hope you can make it to the end...

  1. I understand that I am meant to be given 10 working days notice of the appeal and that the admissions authority case must arrive no later than 7 working days before the hearing.

I did tick the box of the form saying I agree to less than 14 days notice of the appeal hearing. However I assumed I would get notification and then if an earlier date was available I would be informed of this.
But I have been waiting for months for details!
The school advised several weeks ago (after me asking) that appeals would probably be held on 21&22 June and confirmation of this would be sent. So they knew this date ages ago. Why did they then choose to wait till a week to go before officially informing me!

Secondly I spoke to the school again last week as had not received anything. They assured me the authority had sent it out. I actually received the documents on Monday 14th, and our appeal date is on Monday 21st.
How strongly can I argue that they have not fulfilled their requirements of 7 working days notice, and therefore have not followed procedure and my ds should get a place as a result!?

  1. The statement from the admissions authority states the total capcity of the school is set at 1248, and numbers in any one year group is 216. They then list the current and expected numbers for each year as follows: Yr 7 216 Yr8 214 Yr9 217 Yr10 195 Yr11 216 Sixth Form 206 (112+94) Total 1264

I know they have had to accept a child who have won an appeal in the past (the friend coming with me won her ds's appeal). And the numbers show (Yr9) that they can accomodate an extra child.
So on a year by year basis, and given they've set a precedent in the past, I am arguing that they can clearly accomodate an extra child.

The sticking point is that they are over their total capacity numbers. However this is because of the sixth form.
How should I tackle this?

Last year the sith form numbers were 171 (98+73). So the children moving up has gone down from 98 to 94. All the extra children are moving into the 6th form this year. In accepting so many extra sixth formers they have put themselves over their total capacity.

I calculate thet Yr 7 to Yr 11 at 216 students is 1080. As total capacity is 1248 they should only have 168 students in the sixth form. But they are taking in 206 in september!

So I'm thinking that the over subscribed sixth form has no relevance on an individual lower class taking one extra child.

Also I understand that school's get extra money for sixth form student's. So the school have choosen to go over capacity. They would not be if it was not for extra in the sixth form. Given that they are taking on that many sixth formers it leads me to assume the over capacity issue is either a non issue, or is not relevant to sixth form.

They then list general issues associated with excessive numbers as follows:

  1. Most classrooms are quite small and putting more than 27 in a class makes it very crammed & in some cases would be a health and safety issue.

** My arguments
a) You've done it before, and are currently.
b) Very cramped seems an overstatement. The agreed admitance is set at 216 so your classes must be able to adequately accept that number.
c) You must have considered the health and safety issues before as you have a class of more than 27 in year 9 already and have accepted that any risk is acceptable.

  1. Catering facilities are restricted and this results at congestion in eating areas at lunch & break times. In addition, time taken to provide in-house food for all students who require it, means that students are late for their afternoon lessons.

** My arguments
a) My ds is vegetarian and prefers to bring his own packed lunch to school. He will therefore have no impact on in-house food provision and will not be late for afternoon lessons.
b) Anyone who is late will not have been affected by my ds being there.
c) My ds will be eating his packed lunch right away, thus freeing up space in the eating area quickly allowing those queuing for food to have his seat back relatively quickly (sooner than they would get their dinner from the sounds of it).

  1. School lacks communal areas for students to congregate. Result is students spend much of lunch & beak times outside. Excessive student numbers leads to pressure on the management of lunchbreak.
    ** My arguments
    a) Yr 7 have their own outdoor area for break times. One more child in this area, particularly a well behaved child like my ds, will not be a burden on management of lunchbreak.
    b) IMO, where possible children should be encouraged to be outside at break time, so how is it a problem that they are outdoors?

  2. As a result of high overall numbers, the use of teaching rooms is extremely high. Results in some subjects having to use non-specialist rooms, eg library. And some subjects are taught in non-specialist areas eg science. This indicates that shortage of teaching space is not in one particular area, but is a general problem caused by the additional pressures resulting from excessive students in school.

** My arguments
a) The excessive students are entirely as a result of sixth form.
b) One additional child in a class will not have any affect on this issue. The class would already have had to use a non specialist area. Therefore this argument does not prejudice the other children if my child is accepted.
c) You have an additional child in Yr 8 (going into Yr 9), so you have already worked out how to accomodate an additional child in one clasee when necessary.

It summaries with a note:
Whilst we are sorry to have to deny your child a place, the inclusion of your child into a year group that is full would prejudice the efficient use of resources and the quality of education to students at school.

** My argument would be that one additional child in a year group would not unduly prejudice the rest of the students in that year group, for the reasons stated above.

If you made it this far I thank you! If you have then I am hoping that you can also help with advice or additional arguments please.

Many thanks
Gilly

OP posts:
belledechocolatefluffybunny · 08/07/2010 23:05

Gilly. I think that you are at the point where you have worked so hard, you have tried and tried for your son and it's not worked. This isn't because of you, there is nothing else that you can do and with the best meaning in the world, you need to step back before you make yourself ill and send him to his allocated school. No school is perfect and you never really know how good or bad a school is until your child is there so I think that you need to give it a chance, go and have a look around with your son if you can, chat to the head. Stay on the waiting list though.

If my mum had done for me what you have done for your son I'd have been so proud.

PixieOnaLeaf · 08/07/2010 23:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

belledechocolatefluffybunny · 08/07/2010 23:22
Blush
prh47bridge · 09/07/2010 00:20

I'm still here if you want to go to the LGO. But I agree that you need to work on the basis that you are sending your son to the allocated school. Anything you get through the LGO or the waiting list is a bonus.

gillybean2 · 13/07/2010 09:30

Hi all

Thanks, yes I will be going to the LGO and will be in touch with you shortly phr47, thanks for your kind offer.

I have been trying to catch up on some of the many things that haven't been done the last few months. School fete was on friday so tht is now over with. And yesterday morning I was free for a couple of hours and got holiday club booked, car insurance sorted out, MOT booked etc.
Also rang the allocated school and they are taking him for a quick tour on Thursday.

Have to say I wasn't overly impressed with the lady I spoke to. I know they are doing us a favour and made it clear I did appreciate they were going out of their way to do this for him and thank her for organising. I did ask if I could speak to someone re the issues and she was all kinds of vague and said I could mention it to the teacher who would be showing ds round, but he did already know.

They obviously knew who ds was because she repeated some of the info I had given at parents evening about the bully child, including his name and the name of the school we appealled (I did tell them at the time).
But this time she said they couldn't guarantee they wouldn't be in same classes but would try their best to arrange. I also asked if they could soeak to ds and make sure he knew who he could speak to and where he should go should there be any issues at school. She said the teacher showing him round would be the one he could go to and they would show him where to go, but that he could only go there in lunch time, not during school itself.

Anyhow. As I said not overly impressed with reaction or what they're offering to reassure him so far. And being told by friend that I should do what her neighbour did which was refuse to start there and insist only a place at 1st choice school is good enough. Her neighbour did that a couple of years ago and was given a place the next day. I said to her the difference is that in that year no-one won their appeal and they are 2 children over already becaue of appeal. Plus I know one lady at the appeal doesn't have a school for her dd as she rejected allocated school and is on waiting for two others. She is also closer so will get offered place ahead of us.

Really reluctant to go and buy uniform etc. Don't want this school, it was only ever going to be a waiting place till a place came up at 1st choice. So finding it really hard to be enthusiastic to ds about it, though am trying.

Anyhow, git to rush off to work now. Will be in touch to sort out letter to LGO.

Ogh I did get a further letter appologising for the error re the school name which was a typo and they have now corrected and resent letter. All same except the name is now correct. So still no details on it.

OP posts:
aseriouslyblondemoment · 13/07/2010 10:02

hi gillybean was wondering how you were doing
am glad to hear that you're now being able to deal with all the other outstanding bits n bobs in life as it does reach a point where everything else just seems to slide
are you managing to sleep any easier?
i can wholly identify with your situ as i'm going thru this as well with my ds1,i'm also a LP(have a dp but he doesn't live with us)
my ds' allocated school is my worst nightmare come true without going into too many details he has already been targeted twice by bullies on his induction days
have yet to hear anything from the school
i haven't approached the LGO as i didn't believe that they would consider my case was strong enough,nobody won their appeal
am pondering my next move
please continue to post...we can hold each other's hands thru this

prh47bridge · 13/07/2010 13:52

I'm waiting expectantly Gillybean!

Blondemoment - What was your case? Also, was there anything in the way the appeal hearing was conducted that you were unhappy with?

PixieOnaLeaf · 13/07/2010 18:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

gillybean2 · 22/09/2011 19:34

I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to update you all.
Ds ended up going to the allocated school and as I knew would happen has not enjoyed it and hates school and has struggled to form friendships. The bully from primary made the first week or so pretty awful, but that was quickly dealt with after my talking with the head of year.

Ds has asked constantly all last year when he could move to the other school and was miserable when term started again going into year 8 :(

I was hopeful of a place at the start of this year as I was told just before the summer holidays that they thought a space may be coming up but didn't know for certain or when. Ds was third on the waiting list at this point.

Fast forward to today and got a call saying that they didn't have a confirmed date yet but they expect a space to come up soon and were we still interested... Absolutely! says me.

So I have an appointment on tuesday to see the head of year with ds. They've asked if they can approach his current school to find out what streams he's in etc. This all sounds very positive doesn't it...?

So I'm hoping that he will finally get a place this term, maybe even by half term. Ds is thrilled too and can't wait to go.

Such a shame he's lost a year by being at the other school. The head of year and his form teacher there have been brilliant, but it simply isn't the right school for ds. I've always made it clear to them that ds will go to the other school as soon as a place comes up there. I'm going to ring the head of year tomorrow to let him know the situation.

I'm sort of nervous still that this might still fall through. But they wouldn't have asked us to come in for an appointment unless ds was going to get the space would they?

OP posts:
janeyjampot · 22/09/2011 21:59

Thanks for the update, Gillybean2 - I've often wondered what happened and when I've seen you on other threads I haven't liked to ask :)

I really hope this is the news you've been waiting for. Good luck with it!

gillybean2 · 23/09/2011 07:24

Hi Janeyjampot
I wouldn't of minded if you'd PM or asked me to update here sooner. So don't worry about such things if you feel the urge in future :)

I plan on phoning the head of year this morning. Ds and he have chatted a lot of the past year, so I kind of feel Hmm about telling him. He really has been very kind and helped ds enormously and always has time for a chat with him.

I think it would be easier if we knew for certain this place will be ds's and even a rough timeline, ie definitely this term. But I think it fairer to let him know now as the school is likely to be approached for info on ds from our prefered school.

It's all very exciting but I've told ds not to share the info with anyone in school just yet. At least he'll be able to go talk to the head of year once I've phoned him should he feel the need.

I've just got to work out how to pay for a completely new uniform and PE kit and all the contributions to food/textiles etc that I've already paid out this year! Can I even get new school shirts at this time of year...

OP posts:
sue41 · 12/06/2012 17:29

Hi Gillybean,
Did you get that place, just been thinking about everyone and logged in for the first time in ages, was pleased to see you were maybe going to get a place, but was it confirmed?
I do hope so,

Sue

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