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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Secondary Appeal

112 replies

gillybean2 · 18/06/2010 10:19

My ds's secondary school appeal is on Monday and I'm after some help please! If you can help on any of the issues below, or give me any further arguments I can bring up, I would very much appreciate it. This is long I'm afraid, hope you can make it to the end...

  1. I understand that I am meant to be given 10 working days notice of the appeal and that the admissions authority case must arrive no later than 7 working days before the hearing.

I did tick the box of the form saying I agree to less than 14 days notice of the appeal hearing. However I assumed I would get notification and then if an earlier date was available I would be informed of this.
But I have been waiting for months for details!
The school advised several weeks ago (after me asking) that appeals would probably be held on 21&22 June and confirmation of this would be sent. So they knew this date ages ago. Why did they then choose to wait till a week to go before officially informing me!

Secondly I spoke to the school again last week as had not received anything. They assured me the authority had sent it out. I actually received the documents on Monday 14th, and our appeal date is on Monday 21st.
How strongly can I argue that they have not fulfilled their requirements of 7 working days notice, and therefore have not followed procedure and my ds should get a place as a result!?

  1. The statement from the admissions authority states the total capcity of the school is set at 1248, and numbers in any one year group is 216. They then list the current and expected numbers for each year as follows: Yr 7 216 Yr8 214 Yr9 217 Yr10 195 Yr11 216 Sixth Form 206 (112+94) Total 1264

I know they have had to accept a child who have won an appeal in the past (the friend coming with me won her ds's appeal). And the numbers show (Yr9) that they can accomodate an extra child.
So on a year by year basis, and given they've set a precedent in the past, I am arguing that they can clearly accomodate an extra child.

The sticking point is that they are over their total capacity numbers. However this is because of the sixth form.
How should I tackle this?

Last year the sith form numbers were 171 (98+73). So the children moving up has gone down from 98 to 94. All the extra children are moving into the 6th form this year. In accepting so many extra sixth formers they have put themselves over their total capacity.

I calculate thet Yr 7 to Yr 11 at 216 students is 1080. As total capacity is 1248 they should only have 168 students in the sixth form. But they are taking in 206 in september!

So I'm thinking that the over subscribed sixth form has no relevance on an individual lower class taking one extra child.

Also I understand that school's get extra money for sixth form student's. So the school have choosen to go over capacity. They would not be if it was not for extra in the sixth form. Given that they are taking on that many sixth formers it leads me to assume the over capacity issue is either a non issue, or is not relevant to sixth form.

They then list general issues associated with excessive numbers as follows:

  1. Most classrooms are quite small and putting more than 27 in a class makes it very crammed & in some cases would be a health and safety issue.

** My arguments
a) You've done it before, and are currently.
b) Very cramped seems an overstatement. The agreed admitance is set at 216 so your classes must be able to adequately accept that number.
c) You must have considered the health and safety issues before as you have a class of more than 27 in year 9 already and have accepted that any risk is acceptable.

  1. Catering facilities are restricted and this results at congestion in eating areas at lunch & break times. In addition, time taken to provide in-house food for all students who require it, means that students are late for their afternoon lessons.

** My arguments
a) My ds is vegetarian and prefers to bring his own packed lunch to school. He will therefore have no impact on in-house food provision and will not be late for afternoon lessons.
b) Anyone who is late will not have been affected by my ds being there.
c) My ds will be eating his packed lunch right away, thus freeing up space in the eating area quickly allowing those queuing for food to have his seat back relatively quickly (sooner than they would get their dinner from the sounds of it).

  1. School lacks communal areas for students to congregate. Result is students spend much of lunch & beak times outside. Excessive student numbers leads to pressure on the management of lunchbreak.
    ** My arguments
    a) Yr 7 have their own outdoor area for break times. One more child in this area, particularly a well behaved child like my ds, will not be a burden on management of lunchbreak.
    b) IMO, where possible children should be encouraged to be outside at break time, so how is it a problem that they are outdoors?

  2. As a result of high overall numbers, the use of teaching rooms is extremely high. Results in some subjects having to use non-specialist rooms, eg library. And some subjects are taught in non-specialist areas eg science. This indicates that shortage of teaching space is not in one particular area, but is a general problem caused by the additional pressures resulting from excessive students in school.

** My arguments
a) The excessive students are entirely as a result of sixth form.
b) One additional child in a class will not have any affect on this issue. The class would already have had to use a non specialist area. Therefore this argument does not prejudice the other children if my child is accepted.
c) You have an additional child in Yr 8 (going into Yr 9), so you have already worked out how to accomodate an additional child in one clasee when necessary.

It summaries with a note:
Whilst we are sorry to have to deny your child a place, the inclusion of your child into a year group that is full would prejudice the efficient use of resources and the quality of education to students at school.

** My argument would be that one additional child in a year group would not unduly prejudice the rest of the students in that year group, for the reasons stated above.

If you made it this far I thank you! If you have then I am hoping that you can also help with advice or additional arguments please.

Many thanks
Gilly

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 27/06/2010 17:57

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clam · 27/06/2010 23:08

What a nightmare. I suppose though that this is why it's not necessarily a good idea for appellants to attend an induction day before knowing for certain ifbthey'be been successful. It really has got his hopes up and if, god forbid, he is turned down then it's going to seem even worse. And statistically, a fair few of those kids are going to be disappointed.
Let's hope the news is good tomorrow.

belledechocolatefluffybunny · 27/06/2010 23:20

Hi Gilly. It sounds so stessful for you all and I really do hope that your son gets a place. It sounds like you had a very strong argument. I really do hope you recieve good news tomorrow.

gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 09:48

Been on the phone this morning but no-one able to help with when letters will arrive.

The appeals answerphone message says they don't give results of appeals out over the phone.

Phoned allocated school, explained he wasn't coming today and why. Was told they could make sure he was in different class and lesson's to other child (I had already discussed this with lower school head) but that obviously they couldn't stop them meeting up in breaks between lessons and before/after school. Which is exactly why this is an issue!

Rang the waiting lists number again and was told they haven't heard re appeals yet either, note on file saying letters would be sent 25th but they've not received yet.

Asked for info on which schools in area have spaces, only 2 schools actually have places (plus the originally allocated catchment school which he is not going to under any circumstances). Was told he could go back on waiting list for 4th choice school at same position he was before we came off due to offer of 3rd choice school though. But he was near the bottom of that list anyhow and it's still long.

Did have a chat with ds last night about what to do if we didn't get place. He said he'd rather stay home and have me teach him (even though in his words - I would give him really hard work to do!)

Actually I'm thinking that the first HE I'd do would be a geography field trip to somewhere (anywhere!) for a couple of weeks!
Main issue with that is that as a lone parent I wouldn't be able to continue working in the long term, and would have to go on JSA, but I couldn't actually look for work while HE, except maybe evenings, and then I'd have child care issues...

Come on postman, I need to know one way or the other so I can make some decisions here!

OP posts:
clam · 28/06/2010 10:23

So, if there are only two schools with spare places, how are they going to accommodate all those on appeal? Or are they technically allotted to one of those other schools?
Didn't you say that you'd refused that place already though? In which case, if there are others who've done the same thing, then the authorities haven't got enough places to go round, which means they'll have to squeeze some in to the oversubscribed ones. Result!
What time does the post arrive?

gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 10:29

Postman never comes earlier than 11. And not always then either.

Have to pop out to shops now, so hopefully should have been by the time I get home. Though as I said before post out here is always later than it should be so doubt letter will come today even...

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 28/06/2010 11:27

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gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 11:29

Postman caught me outside the doctor's surgery on way back from shops as he had a parcel for me. No letter though...

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 28/06/2010 11:30

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sue41 · 28/06/2010 11:32

Agony!!

clam · 28/06/2010 11:35

This is unfair. The appeals are done, they should put you out of your misery as soon as possible.

LimaCharlie · 28/06/2010 12:45

Have been lurking thus far Gilly but feeling frustration on your behalf!

Really hoping that you have won and get to hear very very soon

gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 13:20

Just rung the school to find out if they've had their letter yet. Usual admission's lady isn't in today (I knew that already) and the other lady I asked for (who was at the appeal hearing with the head so I figured she must be involved with appeals!) is with someone at the moment so I left my number for her to call me back. Course she may have just said that to get rid of me, that's what my boss usually says to avoid people who call for him when he's not wanting to talk to them just then...

And I'm off to school to help with swimming lessons at 2pm and then I run my after school club so won't be home till after 5.
So I'll probably miss her call and don't know whether she'll leave a message or not assuming she is really with someone and will call me back...

I'm really just trying to find out if they've had their letter, even if she won't tell me result over phone. Then at least I'll know mine should come tomorrow. And if they have had it then I'm hoping they may tell me over the phone to put me out of my misery.

Will be at work rest of week so won't get letter till evening whichever day it arrives. Assuming it's even been sent yet!

Tried ringing appeal panel helpline again to see if they would confirm letters had been sent, but it's answerphone still.

I sound desperate don't I!

OP posts:
clam · 28/06/2010 14:13

That'll be because you are!
Hopefully, one day, (soon) this will all be like a bad dream.

sue41 · 28/06/2010 15:05

Well if it makes you feel any better, my boss and myself sometimes say we will ring back later and usually do!! We normally only put off speaking if we're just about to go out, enter a meeting or are in the middle of something important (although once or twice I have been so busy I forget - unless I've written it down!), so not everyone will be just trying to avoid you.

Assume the best, not the worst

gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 18:05

Message on my answerphone from the school saying they've not received anything yet either.

Sue I know you're right that I should feel positive and assume the best. I just can't allow myself to do that right now. Of course I want to answer to be yes, but until I see it in front of me I have to assume the worst as so few appeals actually succeed. Plus if you expect the worst it's so much better when you're wrong isn't it? Maybe?!

At least I've got a friend coming over tomorrow with her dc after school so will have someone here should the letter arrive, and more importantly if it's not here coz I don't think I can handle another day of not knowing!

OP posts:
janeyjampot · 28/06/2010 18:37

At least the school called you back. We tried calling the Panel Clerk at one stage - she'd said we'd hear by Wednesday, but nothing arrived - and she told us she'd be sending the letters on the Friday.

I know how agonising it is - in fact I'm getting quite agonised all over again for you! Fingers crossed for tomorrow's post...

belledechocolatefluffybunny · 28/06/2010 18:43

God, this sounds like hell for you. Fingers crossed that you recieve it tomorrow, they shouldn't make you wait for this.

LimaCharlie · 29/06/2010 14:51

Fingers crossed for you Gillybean - can't believe how protracted and stressful this process has been for you and us

PixieOnaLeaf · 29/06/2010 14:58

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sue41 · 29/06/2010 15:10

Hi Gillybean2 - hoping you get your reply today, we're all here willing the best.

You are quite right to start thinking about plan B - it is so close to the end of term now and if you go for HE there is so much to think about - I think you're v. brave.

Hope to hear some good news later today!

Sue

gillybean2 · 29/06/2010 17:15

Hi everyone
Letter arrived, it's a no.
Going to wait a couple of days before we do anything more.

OP posts:
howlowl · 29/06/2010 17:48

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sue41 · 29/06/2010 17:51

Dear Gillybean2

So sorry to hear your news, really was hoping for good news. Hope you can either get another appeal or get in based on waiting list (keeping fingers crossed still....).

Sue

belledechocolatefluffybunny · 29/06/2010 17:53
Sad