Secondary Appeal

[gillybean2]

My ds's secondary school appeal is on Monday and I'm after some help please! If you can help on any of the issues below, or give me any further arguments I can bring up, I would very much appreciate it. This is long I'm afraid, hope you can make it to the end...

1. I understand that I am meant to be given 10 working days notice of the appeal and that the admissions authority case must arrive no later than 7 working days before the hearing.

I did tick the box of the form saying I agree to less than 14 days notice of the appeal hearing. However I assumed I would get notification and then if an earlier date was available I would be informed of this.
But I have been waiting for months for details!
The school advised several weeks ago (after me asking) that appeals would probably be held on 21&22 June and confirmation of this would be sent. So they knew this date ages ago. Why did they then choose to wait till a week to go before officially informing me!

Secondly I spoke to the school again last week as had not received anything. They assured me the authority had sent it out. I actually received the documents on Monday 14th, and our appeal date is on Monday 21st.
How strongly can I argue that they have not fulfilled their requirements of 7 working days notice, and therefore have not followed procedure and my ds should get a place as a result!?

2. The statement from the admissions authority states the total capcity of the school is set at 1248, and numbers in any one year group is 216. They then list the current and expected numbers for each year as follows: Yr 7 216 Yr8 214 Yr9 217 Yr10 195 Yr11 216 Sixth Form 206 (112+94) Total 1264

I know they have had to accept a child who have won an appeal in the past (the friend coming with me won her ds's appeal). And the numbers show (Yr9) that they can accomodate an extra child.
So on a year by year basis, and given they've set a precedent in the past, I am arguing that they can clearly accomodate an extra child.

The sticking point is that they are over their total capacity numbers. However this is because of the sixth form.
How should I tackle this?

Last year the sith form numbers were 171 (98+73). So the children moving up has gone down from 98 to 94. All the extra children are moving into the 6th form this year. In accepting so many extra sixth formers they have put themselves over their total capacity.

I calculate thet Yr 7 to Yr 11 at 216 students is 1080. As total capacity is 1248 they should only have 168 students in the sixth form. But they are taking in 206 in september!

So I'm thinking that the over subscribed sixth form has no relevance on an individual lower class taking one extra child.

Also I understand that school's get extra money for sixth form student's. So the school have choosen to go over capacity. They would not be if it was not for extra in the sixth form. Given that they are taking on that many sixth formers it leads me to assume the over capacity issue is either a non issue, or is not relevant to sixth form.

They then list general issues associated with excessive numbers as follows:

1. Most classrooms are quite small and putting more than 27 in a class makes it very crammed & in some cases would be a health and safety issue.

** My arguments
a) You've done it before, and are currently.
b) Very cramped seems an overstatement. The agreed admitance is set at 216 so your classes must be able to adequately accept that number.
c) You must have considered the health and safety issues before as you have a class of more than 27 in year 9 already and have accepted that any risk is acceptable.

2. Catering facilities are restricted and this results at congestion in eating areas at lunch & break times. In addition, time taken to provide in-house food for all students who require it, means that students are late for their afternoon lessons.

** My arguments
a) My ds is vegetarian and prefers to bring his own packed lunch to school. He will therefore have no impact on in-house food provision and will not be late for afternoon lessons.
b) Anyone who is late will not have been affected by my ds being there.
c) My ds will be eating his packed lunch right away, thus freeing up space in the eating area quickly allowing those queuing for food to have his seat back relatively quickly (sooner than they would get their dinner from the sounds of it).

3. School lacks communal areas for students to congregate. Result is students spend much of lunch & beak times outside. Excessive student numbers leads to pressure on the management of lunchbreak.
   ** My arguments
   a) Yr 7 have their own outdoor area for break times. One more child in this area, particularly a well behaved child like my ds, will not be a burden on management of lunchbreak.
   b) IMO, where possible children should be encouraged to be outside at break time, so how is it a problem that they are outdoors?

4. As a result of high overall numbers, the use of teaching rooms is extremely high. Results in some subjects having to use non-specialist rooms, eg library. And some subjects are taught in non-specialist areas eg science. This indicates that shortage of teaching space is not in one particular area, but is a general problem caused by the additional pressures resulting from excessive students in school.

** My arguments
a) The excessive students are entirely as a result of sixth form.
b) One additional child in a class will not have any affect on this issue. The class would already have had to use a non specialist area. Therefore this argument does not prejudice the other children if my child is accepted.
c) You have an additional child in Yr 8 (going into Yr 9), so you have already worked out how to accomodate an additional child in one clasee when necessary.

It summaries with a note:
Whilst we are sorry to have to deny your child a place, the inclusion of your child into a year group that is full would prejudice the efficient use of resources and the quality of education to students at school.

** My argument would be that one additional child in a year group would not unduly prejudice the rest of the students in that year group, for the reasons stated above.

If you made it this far I thank you! If you have then I am hoping that you can also help with advice or additional arguments please.

Many thanks
Gilly

Just got back, heart still racing and we left an hour ago!

The panel were excellent, one of the guys was asking all the difficult questions re PAN number, if that was the same as max capacity, number of special needs children in each year, %age of class rooms that were below 30, whether the ICT rooms and science rooms could take more than 27, did children ever have to share equipment, what would the school do if there wasn't enough computers to go round, etc.

The headteacher (yes it was him with another lady too) didn't have the answer to all the questions and hadn't even heard of the max capacity figure. They were caught on the hop more than once with figures they couldn't confirm or didn't know. They were given time to find out the answers while we had a short break.

The head teacher told us while we were waiting to go back in for the summing up after he'd given the asked for info (and whilst saying he'd learnt something new himself re the max capacity figure) that he'd never been grilled quite so thoroughly at an appeal. I assured him if the panel member hadn't asked those questions I was planning to ask them myself! I don't think he was convinced. hehe

Anyhow, the panel deliberated and decided the school had made their case and so we would need to do our individual hearings.

I had actually push the head quite hard on the max capacity figure. He had eventually found a figure of 1262 for max capacity, not the 1248 PAN given before. And he had stated earlier on in questioning about the 6th form numbers that although 112 6th form places were listed they in reality would only expect to take a maximum of 100 and the offered places were subject to grades being achieved and these wouldn't be known until GCSE results were in.

I also asked how often children were late to lessons after lunch and he said they weren't and did it say that in the paperwork?
Also pointed out that this same argument had been given in 2005 and if it was such a big issue why hadn't they sorted it out yet with flexible lunch breaks etc. He waffled on about lunch time clubs etc. The panel asked if there were only clubs at lunch time, the answer was no...

Anyhow, I did a quick bit of maths and he did conceed that there were spaces based on the max capacity figures, a figure of 100 max in 6th form intake plus the 94 moving up, and the current numbers in the other years. He gave a wry kind of smile when I pinned him down on that answer.

Anyhow they were running an hour late by this stage. So there was a short break and the party before us went in but didn't over run any further. I noticed that they didn't appear to have any paperwork, files or obvious documentation with them to back up their case. Neither did the other group who were due to go in after us. But maybe they had sent theirs all in before hand, who knows! The headteacher had gone by this time leaving the lady to deal with the second part of the appeals.

Then I went in with my friend. Thanks to some very last minute advice from Mr Pixie (many thx for that) I had managed to get additional info re several of my arguments, maps, info from head teacher on attendance, together with documents I already had like a letter from my ds and confirmation from the head of the bullying issues that have affected him at school would still be an issue at the newly allocated school given that one of the main purpetrators was now going to go to the allocated school and she felt he needed a fresh start. Panel read it all, highlighted bits on my paperwork, asked questions etc. The lady from the school didn't have anything to ask at all, in fact I'm not sure she actually read my paperwork as I didn't see her do more than glace it.

Anyhow. Lots of info given by me, handed over lots of evidence, letters etc, all photocopied 6 times so they could all have a copy. They asked quite a lot of questions, particularly about the bullying, but also why I hadn't appealed the second choice school and stuff like that. Was able to answer all of that.

I also mentioned that ds was going to the induction day tomorrow and while I had explained to him that it didn't mean he had a place there it had obviously raised his expectations significantly. They said they understood. Also explained that with the bullying issues, that Home Ed was probably the route I would take should the current allocated school end up being the only option.

My friend assures me that although I came across as a bit nervous (she thought that was a good thing), that I gave all the arguments and info I had wanted too and felt it had gone well and I couldn't of done any more. But she would say that regardless wouldn't she, that's what friends are for after all! Mind you she also thought they would come back after the first part and give us all a place, and that didn't happen...

Really have no idea what the outcome will be. I think they will accept one, possibly two children on appeal, whether one of those is my ds or not I really don't know.

They said they would write, probably by the end of the week. Trying to remain calm but feeling physically sick. Am really not good at these public speaking things!

I've been thinking about you and I'm glad you've let us know how it went. It sounds as if you did really well. I agree with your friend - nervous is good - it shows how much it means to you. I found the waiting after the appeal the hardest - I thought I'd be relieved that I'd done all I could but all that happened was that I kept panicking about things I could have done better! Try to relax and do anything you can to take your mind off the waiting.

And let us know as soon as you know!

Hi Gillybean2

Sounds like yours went a lot like mine, in fact you may have had even more evidence. The PIC from the school at mine couldn't really argue or object to my points, same in your case - so fingers crossed.

Only point I have different from you is the academy I applied for is new and they only have up to year 8 at the moment and the school was completed this year. But, otherwise all your points v. similar and I won so I am hoping you will too.

Looking forward to hearing your news. Haven't had my confirmation yet so don't know exactly what was the winning part of my case......

Looking forward to hearing your good news soon.

Sue

So my ds went to the induction day today. Head teacher came over to me (unprompted) and asked if I'd had the 2nd part to my appeal yet.

He then said it was a great question I'd put to him yesterday! Wasn't sure which one he meant (but presumably the one where he had smiled wryly after I got him to admit there were spaces based on the numbers given, but could equally be the one about staggering lunch time to which he commented I sounded like one of his governors). I laughingly apologised for putting him on the spot. He then said that I should be a governor. To which I replied well you never know!

So if nothing else at least I stood out at the appeal! Or maybe he was just making small talk, who knows!!

Saw a couple of the other mum's outside school while waiting to collect ds who had also been appealing and got chatting.
Didn't feel there was too much point keeping my cards close to my chest at this point given we had all had our appeals by then.
So told them my four choices and none offered originally but now had third places offered but he wasn't going there either now because the really nasty bully at his school had appealed it as a lower choice school and was now going there.

One said her child didn't have a place at any school currently as she'd rejected the offered school. Can't blame her, my ds was offered that school originally too although neither of us had put it down. There is no way ever would I choose to send him there I'm afraid. Even if it does come out of special measures (again). That mum said she was going to the parent's evening tonight too. So she's obviously as anxious and hopeful as I am.

The other one didn't really say very much so I don't know what her situation was. And neither said what their appeal grounds were. I only vaguely mentioned the bullying issue and when they asked if that was my grounds to appeal I said it hadn't been the main reason originally but it was now one of the major reasons. Thus trying to make it sound like I had loads of really good reasons, which of course I do have!

So sitting here wondering whether to ask at the parent's evening if they've heard anything. Slowly going crazy. Ok quickly going a lot crazier!

The school will not hear any faster than you do. The clerk sends out the letters at the same time, so when you get your letter the school is getting a bundle telling them the outcome and how many appeals were successful etc.

I've not heard that one used before as a reason for admission - I'll be on your governing body! Very good.

Obviously the head let all the appealants children go to the induction day. If this was a community school I suspect that the head would be getting a stiff telling off from the LA over that, but as a foundation school they can do what they want to. The head is giving the appealants a genuine belief that they will be successful at appeal by allowing them to go to the induction day, which is unfair on the children concerned.

Yes hope he had a good day. I do feel sorry for your wait, one thing in Barnet is all appeals are heard before the induction days (as far as I am aware!!) and you can ring the next day and get the result virtually instantly! Only one night of thinking of all the things you should have said and didn't and the things you did say and shouldn't!

We got our letter today explaining why we won our appeal, it seems it was nothing to do with space but they ruled due to school suitability - subjects taught, the fact she didn't get offered any of her choices even though schools were carefully chosen and bullying in the past...basically everything I used for the second appeal after I had lost the first, but maybe it was due to this being first choice or I was so nervous they took pity on me!!

Hope you get your reply soon and it is a good reply.

Sue

Hi Sue, thx for letting me know. It seems impossible to predict what grounds appeals succeed on. I'm fast coming to the conclusion you simply have to prove there is some space to take them and then give the panel some reason they can accept and hope your child's reason is better than anyone elses.

Yes my ds had an excellent day and has been quite chatty about it too. They were put into form groups, the same form they will be with throughout their whole time at school the head told us later.

He had to interview the person next to him and then tell the rest of the form about the person. There was a helpful list of questions you may want to ask. I asked him what info he'd given about himself which was quite insiteful.

He tells me he saw a girl who he remembers from his school, she left a couple of years ago and the girl who lives three doors along from us and goes there already. Plus he saw the child who use to be in his year at school and moved away in Yr3, who already has a confirmed place at the school (due to siblings). I spoke to his parents briefly in the evening.

They did some science, heating some chemicals and they had to add the right amount of drops and wait for it to go bang. And some maths which he went into detail about. He said he knows where the maths department is too now as he left his pencil case there and had to go back to find it!

He wasn't too impressed with the lunchtime menu (as a fussy vegetarian I had expected that) so ate his packed lunch instead.

So all in all a very good day, he even told his grandma that it had been great when she asked him, which is high praise indeed.

The parents evening was difficult because it simply confirmed that this really is the right school for my ds and left me wishing I knew that I could be pleased and happy and embrace it all. They had a slide show playing on the induction day and there were a couple of slides with my ds in.

Head teacher spotted me again! I asked him if he's heard anything and he said he'd be the last to hear probably.

Had to tick the 'extra' list of children who were on appeal. Two other ticks on that list already when I got there. There was a later parents session too so more could very well be coming to that...

Then had various talks on subjects, how they stream them and in which subjects, accelerated learning programs and how that all works etc.
It was a completely different evening to the one I had been to at his currently allocated school. A very different approach to how they work, how they teach, and what it's important for us to know.

None of the stuff on uniform, behaviour expected etc (that's all in the student handbook he brought home with him today and presumably in the paperwork the head refered to that I haven't got (yet). Basically that stuff is all expected and didn't need to be emphasised at parents evening.

Info about the two parents evening and three assesments that come home in the year.
Lots of info on who to contact if we need to ever, how to contact them, how to get the weekly newsletter online if the paper copy doesn't arrive home.

So already I know who his form tutor is likely to be, who the head of year is (she stays with them the whole way through to yr 11), who the lower school head is, deputies and of course the headteacher.

It's just so the right school form him. I'm really wishing I'd emphasised that more at the appeal, but it was in the paperwork, and they didn't question me on that part at all, so am hoping that was covered sufficiently or that what I'd already said was enough and the extra stuff didn't matter as a result...

I hope they send the letters first class post!

Sounds like a wonderful day, my DD has hers on 7th July, got a letter confirming yesterday and they will only do 9am to 1pm.
They then meet the kids individually at their schools and we have individual interviews but parents evening isn't until September.

I hope my DD enjoys as much as yours - when I told her she'd got in her reply was 'I think I'll accept!'.

Again good luck, I am keeping everything crossed for you!!

(by the way, I was shaking like a jelly at mine, so I agree with above that nerves can help!! - it was one of the main differences)

Gillybean2,
If it is any help, the fact that you child has been told what form they are in etc is very good grounds for appeal to the LGO if the appeal panel answer is no.
I am absolutely amazed that the head is letting all these appealants to the open days. Or does he know something that you don't?

Sue41,
I suspect that your appeal had everything to do with space. The panel had decided that they could admit some of the appealants but not all. You were obviously one of the more deserving cases and therefore were offered a place. The letter will always reflect the arguements that you used but actually it does not matter what it says, the only bit that matters is the bit that says you have a place!

Hi admission

I think you are right - I did raise issue of space and as your previously have advised I think this helps but is not the main reason.
I am v. happy and grateful for the outcome and your input has been really helpful over the last few weeks.

Hopefully we will have good news for Gillybean2 v. soon.

I was told at school yesterday by a couple of mum's 'you're not sleeping are you, we can tell' and tbh I usually look tired so I must look extra dreadful right now!

And I still have the weekend minimum to get through before I hear. judging by how late the last lopt of letters came I'm really doubtful it will turn up on monday even.

What is the LGO if I need to appeal to them?

Hope you don't have to wait all through to next week. Still keeping everything crossed for you.

Yes, I'm checking several times a day for news! Mine took 8 days to come - by the end I was in tears at the slightest provocation, and waking at 4am every morning.

It can't be much longer now....

Well I just rang the waiting list to find out his position, and it's not changed. So either no-one has succeeded at appeal or the results aren't out yet.
Seems there is no emoticon

Gillybean,
The LGO is the local government ombudsman. They would be the resposnible body to appeal to if you believe that the admission appeal had been subject to maladministration. That is not that you got the wrong answer from the appeal panel but that you felt thatt here was something about the appeal process that was wrong or that the appeal panel did wrong.
I would say the head inviting children who were appealing for the school but not accepted met that criteria as they have given an impression to parents and more importantly to the pupils that they will get a place.
The bad news is that if the LGO agree with you it does not mean that you get a place, the LGO can only direct that a second appeal hearing takes place at which you can obviously bring up this situation.
But I would be thinking positively that you are going to get an outcome from the appeal of an offer of a place.

With our appeal the Head knew first - he had a list on Friday night but we didn't get the letter until Saturday.

Completely understand the hair tearing! With mine it was weight gaining. Just joined the gym to try to get rid of 3 months of anxiety eating!

Still not sleeping. Postman doesn't come till late here too.
I doubt the letter will come today regardless, always takes longer out here to get stuff.

My ds was meant to be going for a 2 hour introduction at his allocated school on monday. Now he knows the bully is going to be there too he's saying he doesn't want to go to it. Even though one of his good friends is going. If I can't persuade him to go for two hours what hope do I have of the next five years!?

Plus he's already been telling people we've won the appeal. A mum came up and congratulated me, when I said I hadn't heard yet and how had she heard she said ds had told her when she'd asked him.
He's really pinning his hopes on this. I don't know how he'll take it if we don't succeed

Been out this morning, just got home, as expected no post....

Checking regularly and sharing your tension....

Hi Sue, and all. Thanks, I appreciate knowing that you're waiting to hear too and will post as soon as I know.

I fell asleep on the sofa again last night, woke up at 3am and been awake ever since. Can't seem to get anything done either, so worried still.

I asked ds yesterday why he had told people we had won appeal even though we didn't know yet. He said at the open day the headteacher had said well done to them all for getting a space at the school. So he thought he must have a space now. I guess that was part of his welcome speech and he hadn't thought ds (and possibly the other appeal children there) would take it literally.

I also asked him what we should do if we didn't win the appeal and he said he didn't know and then got all upset. So I said we didn't need to talk about it now and will wait till after we hear to talk about it if we need to then. Really hoping we don't need to talk about it, but starting to feel less positive now.

I've decided there's no point trying to persuade him to go to the introduction day at the currently allocated school as he is adament he won't go now he know's the bully is going to it.

Been reading up on HE as it seems that, and possibly a late appeal on second choice school, are the only actual options should this appeal not succeed.

Wondering who I can phone to ask tomorrow if the letter still hasn't come. Will try the school I guess to see if they've heard yet, but the admission's lady isn't in on monday's...

In Barnet we have the secondary admissions team and you can find the number on their web site - your local authority should have something similar. We also have a 'choices'
(Ha Ha) team who should be there who can offer advice.