Secondary Appeal

[gillybean2]

My ds's secondary school appeal is on Monday and I'm after some help please! If you can help on any of the issues below, or give me any further arguments I can bring up, I would very much appreciate it. This is long I'm afraid, hope you can make it to the end...

1. I understand that I am meant to be given 10 working days notice of the appeal and that the admissions authority case must arrive no later than 7 working days before the hearing.

I did tick the box of the form saying I agree to less than 14 days notice of the appeal hearing. However I assumed I would get notification and then if an earlier date was available I would be informed of this.
But I have been waiting for months for details!
The school advised several weeks ago (after me asking) that appeals would probably be held on 21&22 June and confirmation of this would be sent. So they knew this date ages ago. Why did they then choose to wait till a week to go before officially informing me!

Secondly I spoke to the school again last week as had not received anything. They assured me the authority had sent it out. I actually received the documents on Monday 14th, and our appeal date is on Monday 21st.
How strongly can I argue that they have not fulfilled their requirements of 7 working days notice, and therefore have not followed procedure and my ds should get a place as a result!?

2. The statement from the admissions authority states the total capcity of the school is set at 1248, and numbers in any one year group is 216. They then list the current and expected numbers for each year as follows: Yr 7 216 Yr8 214 Yr9 217 Yr10 195 Yr11 216 Sixth Form 206 (112+94) Total 1264

I know they have had to accept a child who have won an appeal in the past (the friend coming with me won her ds's appeal). And the numbers show (Yr9) that they can accomodate an extra child.
So on a year by year basis, and given they've set a precedent in the past, I am arguing that they can clearly accomodate an extra child.

The sticking point is that they are over their total capacity numbers. However this is because of the sixth form.
How should I tackle this?

Last year the sith form numbers were 171 (98+73). So the children moving up has gone down from 98 to 94. All the extra children are moving into the 6th form this year. In accepting so many extra sixth formers they have put themselves over their total capacity.

I calculate thet Yr 7 to Yr 11 at 216 students is 1080. As total capacity is 1248 they should only have 168 students in the sixth form. But they are taking in 206 in september!

So I'm thinking that the over subscribed sixth form has no relevance on an individual lower class taking one extra child.

Also I understand that school's get extra money for sixth form student's. So the school have choosen to go over capacity. They would not be if it was not for extra in the sixth form. Given that they are taking on that many sixth formers it leads me to assume the over capacity issue is either a non issue, or is not relevant to sixth form.

They then list general issues associated with excessive numbers as follows:

1. Most classrooms are quite small and putting more than 27 in a class makes it very crammed & in some cases would be a health and safety issue.

** My arguments
a) You've done it before, and are currently.
b) Very cramped seems an overstatement. The agreed admitance is set at 216 so your classes must be able to adequately accept that number.
c) You must have considered the health and safety issues before as you have a class of more than 27 in year 9 already and have accepted that any risk is acceptable.

2. Catering facilities are restricted and this results at congestion in eating areas at lunch & break times. In addition, time taken to provide in-house food for all students who require it, means that students are late for their afternoon lessons.

** My arguments
a) My ds is vegetarian and prefers to bring his own packed lunch to school. He will therefore have no impact on in-house food provision and will not be late for afternoon lessons.
b) Anyone who is late will not have been affected by my ds being there.
c) My ds will be eating his packed lunch right away, thus freeing up space in the eating area quickly allowing those queuing for food to have his seat back relatively quickly (sooner than they would get their dinner from the sounds of it).

3. School lacks communal areas for students to congregate. Result is students spend much of lunch & beak times outside. Excessive student numbers leads to pressure on the management of lunchbreak.
   ** My arguments
   a) Yr 7 have their own outdoor area for break times. One more child in this area, particularly a well behaved child like my ds, will not be a burden on management of lunchbreak.
   b) IMO, where possible children should be encouraged to be outside at break time, so how is it a problem that they are outdoors?

4. As a result of high overall numbers, the use of teaching rooms is extremely high. Results in some subjects having to use non-specialist rooms, eg library. And some subjects are taught in non-specialist areas eg science. This indicates that shortage of teaching space is not in one particular area, but is a general problem caused by the additional pressures resulting from excessive students in school.

** My arguments
a) The excessive students are entirely as a result of sixth form.
b) One additional child in a class will not have any affect on this issue. The class would already have had to use a non specialist area. Therefore this argument does not prejudice the other children if my child is accepted.
c) You have an additional child in Yr 8 (going into Yr 9), so you have already worked out how to accomodate an additional child in one clasee when necessary.

It summaries with a note:
Whilst we are sorry to have to deny your child a place, the inclusion of your child into a year group that is full would prejudice the efficient use of resources and the quality of education to students at school.

** My argument would be that one additional child in a year group would not unduly prejudice the rest of the students in that year group, for the reasons stated above.

If you made it this far I thank you! If you have then I am hoping that you can also help with advice or additional arguments please.

Many thanks
Gilly

Oh, so sorry you didn't get it

Oh no! I'm really sorry. That's dreadful for you, especially after the induction days had got everyone's hopes up.

Sorry to hear this.
Do you know if anyone else got a yes? Or a blanket 'no' for all. Don't know whether that would make it fell better or worse.

Any reasons given?

I'm sorry to hear that. However, I agree with Admission that the fact your child has been told what form he would be in, coupled with all the other stuff around the induction day, is an excellent case for referral to the LGO. The most likely outcome is that the LGO will recommend a fresh appeal but they do sometimes recommend that the child is admitted without any further appeals - that's how I got my son into the local primary school.

I guess the LGO is the next port of call then. Wasn't sure they would actually be able to do anything except maybe slap the headteachers wrist and tell him not to do it again.

What was your experimce prh47? What kind of thing did you put to them that got you that result?

Just so tired with everything and still not sleeping well (been up since before 4am but it's still too hot to sleep).

The letter basically says the panel were unanimously satisfied that the published criteria were correctly applied, unanimously satisfied that prejudice to the provision of efficient education would result if my child were admitted. Panel not satisfied that my reasons for wishing to admit my child were sufficient to outway this (again unanimously).

I thought we had established there was room at the school based on the max capacity and figures head gave re 6th form. Head even admitted based on those figures school had space. So how can panel have found that?! I agree they couldn't have accepted everyone (13 appeals), but at least one space, posibly two was definitely there I feel.

I don't know yet if anyone succeeded. Going to try and find out tomorrow. That's if the school will tell me. Am kind of hoping no-one succeeded as it means we only have to wait for one space to come up, not two before they admit anyone else.

Given that we are 68 on waiting list I think the waiting game is very much reliant on other parents settling for a different school before term starts and a space coming up very close to start of term or even in first few weeks.

One of the mum's I spoke to who was appealing doesn't have an allocated school now for her dd (rejected offered school) and is closer to school than we are, so pretty sure she'll be staying on list come what may. How many others of those appeals are in similar situations!?

Really not sure what my next move should be now.

That's a fairly standard set of conclusions for an unsuccessful appeal.

If the head admitted during the appeal that the school had space I would expect that there may have been some successful appeals. The panel have to start by asking themselves if the school can admit all of the appelants. If they decide they can't (and you don't think they can), the next step is for them to decide for each individual case if the prejudice to the child outweighs the prejudice to the school. Finally, if that gives them more successful appeals than they think the school can handle, the panel have to compare the cases so that the places go to the most deserving.

My experience was in an infant class size case. We moved into the area a few months before our youngest was due to start school, missing the normal admissions round. Our application to put him into Reception at the local school was declined as they were full up. We appealed and the LA claimed it was an infant class size case despite the fact that the school operates with classes of 25 in infants. Their argument relied on a decision which had not yet been taken (and, as it happens, never was taken). We lost the first appeal despite the LA putting in a grossly inadequate case. We referred the matter to the LGO who agreed that the LA's case was inadequate and ordered a further appeal. We lost the second appeal and went to the LGO again. The LGO agreed that the LA could not continue to base an infant class size case on a decision that had not been taken and ordered them to admit our child. They did, albeit with very bad grace.

In going to the LGO I simply stated (in some detail) what I felt was wrong with the way the panel had arrived at its decision. In your case I would state that the induction day and the fact your child was told what form he would be in gave you a reasonable expectation that your child would be admitted. I would argue that the panel do not appear to have considered this in their decison making. I would suggest that the induction day amounted to an offer of a place by the school and that, under paragraph 1.50 of the School Admissions Code, there are very few circumstances in which such an offer can be withdrawn.

Very quick as late for work. Just rang school and they confirmed two appeals had been successful.

Will look at your post in more detail when I get home from work prh47, thanks.

Well, was he "told" what form he would be in? All 13 appelants attended the day, when it was unlikely they could all be accepted in to the school. They had to put them all somewhere on the day, so presumably they spread them out across the forms just to be going on with. The problem here is that by trying to save time/hassle in repeating information on a subsequent induction for any successful appeals, they've raised the hopes of all 13. All the information given on the students' day and the parents' evening was general stuff for those with confirmed places. I'm not sure you could argue that they were talking directly to you, therefore a place was in the bag.
But I don't see how that could be used to overturn the decision? Unfortunately for the OP.
But I'm no expert. And prhbridge knows her stuff. Have "read" her before! So let's hope that she's right and I'm wrong.

What an interesting letter on your appeal. All those unanimously agreed decisions, when panel clerks are told that they should not put in anything like that - it should just be the panel's decision was. What do you put when it is 2 to 1 decision? Sorry the panel were hopelessly divided but you lost out! Not good practice.

I would also say that they have failed to adequately inform you of the reasons for the appeal not being succesful. What the admission appeal code says in paragraph 2.38 is the letter must (so it is legal requirement) contain a summary of the relevant factors that were raised by the appellant and considered by the panel, along with any legal advice. Also give clear and detailed reasons for the panel's decisions, addressing the key questions that the panel considered. When I as a panel member make a decision I have to justify that decision based on the evidence presented. We are asked individually to come to decisions with reasons and these are written down to ensure that the clerk can then give appropriate reasons for the decision.

I would go to the LGO and send in the letter for good measure, suggesting that as they have not put anything in the letter they obviously did not make the decision based on the evidence that you had supplied and the facts given by the headteacher.

'However I received a letter this week saying that the headteacher had reconsidered and would now like to invite ds to the induction day and I could attend the parents bit that evening too if I wanted. It did also say if we didn't then they would arrange an alternative date should our appeal be successful' I think that is where any appeal will fall down - the Head has clearly indicated that your place is dependent on a successful appeal.

Whilst I sympathise as a teacher and mother I have major issues with large class sizes - very detrimental to teaching and learning in my experience.

I have re read the appeal letter thoroughly now and have also looked up the relevant paragraph that admission quotes above and think I agree with that route. They have only given a very brief summary of some of the relevant factors (namely the prejudice) and they haven't given clear and detailed reasons for the panel?s decision, addressing the key questions that the panel considered. Or maybe they have but I don't see any that relate to issues I raised so can't see that they've considered my ds's individual case.

The question is should I focus on that, or bring in the induction day issue as well?

The most striking thing in the letter is that the heading is correct but in the first paragraphit refers to the "Independant Appeal Panel constituted by (xyz) school on 21st June...". The school it states is NOT the school we are appealling. Presumably this is a silly typo by the person typing the letter, but can I use that at all?

Any help greatfully appreciated!

In more detail the relevant sections of the letter state as follows:

The Panel was unanimously satisfied that the school's published admissions arrangements, as administered by the Local Authority, (name of), comply with the mandatory requirements of the School Admissions Code and Part 3 of the Schools Standards and Framework Act 1998 and that they were applied correctly in this case.

The Panel was unanimously satisfied that prejudice to the provision of efficient education and efficient use of resources, as defined in Section 86 paragraph 3 (a) of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, would result if your child were admitted to the school, namely the the school is over subscribed. The Panel was not satisfied that your resons for wishing your child to be admitted to the school were sufficient to outweigh this.

After careful consideration of all the arguments, which you and the Authority put forward, the Panel unanimously decided not to allow your appeal for admission to the (correct name) School.

Cory - The issue is that the school shouldn't have invited people to the induction day unless they had places. To do so raises expectations of a successful appeal. I can't guarantee that the LGO would come down on Gillybean's side in this case but it is certainly worth a try.

Gillybean2 - I would mantion the induction day issue as well. It certainly won't do your case any harm.

The reasons given are very flimsy and really should be in much more detail. There are plenty of legal cases to the LGO surrounding the letter detailing the outcome of cases. What would usually happen is that the LGO will refer back to the notes taken around the decisions taken. These may show that the decisions were all taken with good reasons and basically you have a lazy clerk who is not doing the job correctly. Alternatively there may be little or no notes of the decisions reached, hence the very general and unsatisfactory letter.

To get to the bottom of the situation you have no alternative but to go to the LGO and complain about the letter and what the ehad teacher allowed to happen over the open day.

gillybean how are you doing?
have been watching this thread and was so sorry to hear about your current predicament
i'm in exactly the same boat as you right now so understand just how devastated and angry you're feeling
have you contacted the LGO yet?

Just realised, in my last post I said "Cory" when I should have said "Clam". Sorry.

Well, no, prh, I guess not, except that they were never going to offer all 13 appeals a place. And it seems they've decided they did have space for 2, which might be how they justify it. It's unfortunate for gilly that it's another 2 who are deemed to be more "deserving." Hope they didn't use her arguments though!

I'm going insane, really don't know what to do for the best and so tired from lack of sleep.

Was chatting briefly with one of the teachers at our school. Up till now I thought she had choosen the catchment secondary school for her ds as she had previously said that he had wanted to go where his friends were and he had worked really hard for his SATS to prove to her he would work hard if he went to that school and so she had agreed to it.

A couple of times since then she has mentioned she's not too happy with what's going on at the school, and I've asked her if she would consider moving her ds and she's always said something non commital, like we'll see how it goes, or that's still an option.

But today when I asked her if she'd thought any more about moving him she said she had no choice but to keep him there. I asked why she didn't ring round the schools to find another place, and she said that her ds had been on the waiting list for the school my ds has been allocated for 3 years now and she knew other people who were on waiting lists too who were trying to move their children and couldn't.

So now I'm thinking that we've been lucky to have been allocated a place at this school really when other people are trying to get there and can't.

One of the girls at work also said that they hadn't had any choice of secondary (not this area).

But then on the other hand I spoke to another parent about the allocated school, and she mentioned about the toilet doors (which I already knew about). The toilet doors have been removed so teachers walking past can see what is going on in the toilets as there have been a number of incidents. She also told me one of the reason they'd put so many cctv camera up at the school was to stop the children wandering off into town between lessons and they now also have a member of staff posted between lessons to help avoid this too.

It really doesn't inspire me with confidence in the allocated school, but it is still a better option than the catchment school.

And from what the first mum was saying it seems it may be some considerable time before spaces come up on waiting lists, so if I go with home ed then it could well be years rather than months before a space comes up. So would definitely have to pack in my job.

But then I've also been told of one parent who refused to accept the allocated school, child wasn't at school the first day, council rang parents to find out why and parents repeated they were home ed until a space came up, and she was given a space at preferred school next day.

So I'm thinking that by refusing the allocated school it may force their hand. On the other if we refuse it it may not and then I'll be stuffed in terms of options as they could then give the space to a child on the waiting list which would leave only the catchment school option and he's not going there under any circumstances.

My ds seems quite happy at the moment with the idea of home ed. Though he is worried that the police will come knocking. This is because I told him a few times when he was refusing to go to school that if he didn't I would get in trouble and the police could be sent round even. I'm not sure how well I could manage for to do this for an extended period of time though. Short term yes I could manage, but there is so much to learn/teach and I'm no expert on many things and I feel like I'd end up spending all my time researching lessons etc and have no time for anything else. Especially if I was working 3 days a week still.

I really don't know what to do here, and am running round in circles getting no-where.

I want to do a letter to the LGO, but I don't know where to start. I can get an address of the internet I guess, but am so worried that this is going to be the last slim chance I don't want to mess up any letter so don't know where to start on it. But I'm panicking that I don't have enough time to sort this before the autum term starts.

And there's only 3 weeks left of term so if I'm going to try and persuade ds to give the allocated school a go then I've got to arrange a meeting with head of lower school and have ds go around school to see it (He's never actually ever been there, not even for open evening). I went to an open evening 2 years ago and the Yr 7 intake parents evening thing. Neither of those inspired me very much I have to say.

It's all so difficult and I don't know what to do for the best anymore. Or where to start really

Hi Gilly.
Noted the timing of your last post! You really are pulling your hair out, aren't you? Poor thing.

Look, I don't know much about the legalities and processes of appeals and the LGO etc... (panelmember and prh are your people for that) but from an outsider looking in, I would think that it might be very foolish to turn down the place at the allocated school.
Why not give it a go? You can always opt out and try home-edding (sp?) later if it doesn't work out, but it looks like you won't have the option of the other way round, if places there are also over-subscribed.
With regard to the loo issues.... does that not show that the staff are taking behaviour issues seriously and taking action? I reckon most schools (even those perceived as desirable) have similar issues, although I bet they don't advertise them.
And re: this other child who bullies your son. You haven't gone into the details of what's gone on before on this thread and if it's on another one, then I've missed it, so apologies if I appear to be trivialising it, but you've been told he would be in a different form. There are going to be so many other kids and distractions going on in a new school, that it's very likely that your son will no longer register on his radar. Primary school is much more insular, and class dynamics have a much higher prominence. All that is more diluted at secondary, as your son has a much greater chance of avoiding him.
You can turn this around for your son, IF you sell it to him right, as a positive thing.
And carry on with the action/waiting lists etc... in the background.
Hope you can get some peace of mind soon.

You won't force the LA's hand by refusing the allocated school. Unless the LA was breaking the codes, the fact that someone got a place the next day when the LA was told they were home educating would have been purely coincidence - they do happen sometimes! Turning down the allocated place certainly won't help you with the LGO. If the LGO orders a further appeal, turning down the allocated place may actually damage your position - the panel may feel you are trying to blackmail them. Whilst panels are supposed to put such feelings aside, they are only human.

Referring the case to the LGO does not commit you to accepting a place at your preferred school if you win. The most likely outcome from an LGO referral is a fresh appeal. Even if an appeal awards you a place you can still turn it down and stick with the allocated school. You don't lose anything by referring the case to the LGO. I can't guarantee that going to the LGO will be successful but it is worth a try.

If you do go to the LGO, I would start by ringing them - the phone number is on their website. Don't be put off by the person who takes your message - they are junior staff and don't have a full understanding of the rules around admissions cases. I have known them tell people that there is no chance of the LGO getting involved when in fact the parent has a very good case. Ignore any advice they give you and, if they try to put you off, insist that you want this case to go ahead.

Shortly after contacting them you will be given a reference number (IIRC you get given this in the initial telephone call) and told who will be dealing with your case. This is the point at which you should send in your written submission.

I'm happy to help with your submission in any way I can. You can contact me direct by clicking on "Contact poster" or by emailing [email protected]. If you use the hotmail address, say so here - I don't check it very often.

For your own sanity you need to make some decisions.
The first has to be that your son is going to the allocated school as of now, no home education, that is simply not a sensible option. No arguement, no discussion that is the school he is going to. Follow that through so that everything is organised.
As a total separate decison and without mentioning it to your son do as PRH has suggested and speak to the LGO. If anything positive comes from it then that is a bonus but assume that it will not succeed.

I am still here watching and hoping for you.

If you haven't been to the allocated school, do visit - the one we were allocated used to have a bad reputation, but when I visited it was much improved and we had also started to talk to our DD as if she was going to prepare her as several people had advised on this forum.

Still keeping my fingers crossed, you seem to have a lot of good help and information from admission and others, again Good Luck,

Sue

Hi all
thanks for your support
Too much to deal with at the moment and not sleeping much either.

Had an important deadline at work which had to be met, and got the school fete on friday which I'm meant to be organising.

Will be in touch with you pr47, soon as I can get my head round everything. Really can't think straight on much at all right now.

gillybean2 I am sorry you didnt get the school you wanted. I have recently been through the same thing. We worked our socks off and got ours but we had many many points in our favour. Please dont give up, stay on the waiting list and keep in touch with the school. Good luck in the future.