Moving to Steiner for Secondary School from State Primary

[WKMum]

Hello!

Advice sought from all you very knowledgeable Mums and Dads out there!

I realize I may be opening a can of worms with this post, but I have tried to make my way through the various other Steiner threads on MN and, despite their being very long and rambling, very few of the posts seem to address my particular situation, so please forgive me for starting up another debate.

I am posting this in the Secondary School thread, because I am not interested in the whole Steiner Early Years 'To Read Or Not To Read' debate.

My DD is eight years old and in Y3 at our local state primary school. She is strong at the more 'creative' subjects, such as writing and drama, but her maths is poor and she is in the 'lower set'. (Personally, I have an issue with the idea of 'streaming' children as young as seven, as I think it gives their confidence a terrible knock, and only serves to dint their interest in the subject even further - but that is another discussion!)

We live in a GS area, and a large number of the children at DD's school will go on to GS. My daughter's teacher has indicated, however, that she is unlikely to pass the 11+. (Information I was given, rather than requested.) Although I appreciate it is early to make this call, and nothing is set in stone, I am nonetheless currently exploring the other options.

The one aim I have for my DD is that she is happy in her secondary school. Academic achievement is not the 'be all and end all' in my opinion, and I am not inclined to have her intensely coached to pass the 11+, as I know a lot of people around here do, just so she can then be at the bottom of a very large pile of very bright/pushed kids, which I think would just undermine her confidence.

My preference for her would be a small, non-selective indie, in which she can feel comfortably average in most subjects and have enough one-to-one attention to be encouraged to reach her full potential in the subjects she enjoys.

With this in mind, DH and I went to see our local Steiner school. I was impressed by the ethos and the way the children seemed happy and engaged with what they were doing, and the teachers seemed relaxed but in control. The facilities were also good - theatre, sports hall, library etc.

As I understand it, Steiner schools do vary a lot, but I would be very interested to hear from any Steiner parents or pupils (former or current) who have experienced the transition from state primary school to Steiner school at age 11 (i.e. mid-way through the Steiner 'Lower School'). Was it a difficult transition to make - particularly given that you would be joining a class of children and teacher who have been together from the age of seven? Did the school feel very different from state primary? Better or worse?

Also, how did the school approach GCSEs and 'A' Level preparation within the Steiner methodology? Do you feel you had adequate help and encouragement without being pressured?

This will probably make me sound like a hippie - even though there is not an incense stick to be seen in my house! - but I am a great believer in 'the journey' being just as important as the destination, and I am worried about my DD's character being 'crushed' by what I see as the high-pressured environment of the current educational model favoured in most UK state schools.

However, should my DD wish to take exams when she is older and ready to make that decision for herself, I would want her to be adequately prepared. I'd love to know from anyone whether they think the Steiner method would work in this regard.

Thanks so much for reading this post. I apologise that it's rather long, but I wanted to try to make clear the sort of feedback/advice I am looking for.

Could I kindly ask everyone to please avoid posting potentially libelous comments on this thread, as I know this is a highly-emotive subject and do not want to get MN into any trouble.

If the Good School Guide is anything like the Good Hotel Guide you can take it with a pinch of salt, a slice of lime & a shot of tequila

I don't think many people are looking for alternative schools, what they'd really like are better schools and for many parents & teachers a revision of the existing exam-based culture. There are however some real, progressive alternatives, just not near you. Steve Walden knows what I mean.

You're always so sensible mathsanxiety

btw TubOfLard, perhaps the text was just easier for an anthroposophist to find. I understand you charming esotericists have access to Higher Googling

Hi WK Mum,
My daughter went from mainstream to Steiner School at age 11.She made some lovely friends and there were some caring dedicated teachers but we removed her after two years.
We liked the idea of all the art opportunities,woodwork ,metalwork etc and the fact that there was a huge theatre as our daughter is dyslexic but arty and very good at singing,dancing and drama. We thought it would be unpushy and liked the idea of her staying with one teacher from 11-14 when she would go to the upper school.

In fact she had three teachers in the first year.I think six or seven new kids joined when she did and they have all left now.There was a very high turnover and I four new kids have arrived since we left.I think it is hard to fit in,some parents were welcoming but it was an effort to have our ideas heard.

Like I said our dd still has some great friends from the school but she found it all a bit 'odd' and felt like all the new kids weren't 'Steinerised' like the kids that had been there for ages.

The art work was good in the upper school ( 14 plus ) but before that it was very rigid and some work such as 'layering' a watercolour technique was I found out to help the child's soul rather than an artistic expression !

I totally agree with Walden's post ,it is essential that you read books that Steiner wrote on education,there are plenty at Amazon ,they are completely different from the school prospectus you will be given.If you are happy with his ideas then thats fine.I remember asking one of the trustees why they didn't talk about reincarnating the childs soul in the school literature and she said she thought all the parents new about it .We certainly didn't and I doubt if any of the new parents did.

There was bullying at the school which as you say can happen anywhere its just that these schools don't seem to deal with it in a normal way.

By the way my dd is at theatre school now and loves it ,I wish we had put her there at 11 as she has always been obsessed with the stage and done classes outside school since she was small.I'd say if your daughter really has a talent thats apparent then at 16 it will be too late for her to get a theatre career going,there's a lot of tap,ballet,jazz etc that she'll have to master !

Good luck with your search ! Don't worry about her being in the bottom set for Maths ,thats a good thing as the teachers are giving her work that is the right level for her,her self esteem would be worse if she was in a higher set.As for the teacher that thinks she may not pass her 11 plus ask her if she thinks she may have dyslexia as you can often tell by age 7,thats when we got our dd tested then she had a dyslexic tutor which is very different than having a regular one I'd say,

Maimuna

Dear Maimuna,

Thank you so much for your post. I have to say it was very encouraging to read about your experience, given that your situation is very close to my own, and that your motivations sound very similar to mine.

I am certainly looking into the whole Steiner methodology very carefully before committing and I am grateful to the many posters on this thread that have pointed me towards informative literature about the 'religious' aspects of the Steiner approach.

I am very happy for my DD to pursue her interests in theatre/dance/drama/singing outside of school, and I know it would be too late for her to embark on learning these things at 16, but I suppose I'd just rather she didn't focus exclusively on them until she is older.

That said, I would be happy for her to go to a theatre school if it was what she wanted; I suppose I am just a bit worried about how she will cope in what is generally regarded as a very 'tough' profession. Obviously, as she has only just turned eight years old, it is hard to tell if she is truly 'talented', but her drama teachers rave about her and she certainly seems to thrive on stage (she can learn lines in next to no time).

I am sensing that your experience of drama school has been very positive for your daughter, though, which is great news.

Thanks for sharing!

p.s. I meant to add that we have a fair few thesps in our family, so I am all-too-aware aware of the pros and pitfalls of this profession - the ever-stressful 'resting' and close-to-enforced self-criticality etc. - which I am anxious to avoid, although I obviously don't want to stifle her if she feels able to take all this on.

Blimey! Why did I think childbirth would be the difficult part!

"... it is essential that you read books that Steiner wrote on education, there are plenty at Amazon" ...

Actually the only thing he wrote on it was an essay at an early time - 1909, ten years before the founding of the first Waldorf school - on the education of the child from the perspective of anthroposophy.

Except for that, everything else he expressed on the subject had the form of a number of lecture series' and discussions with teachers in connection with and after the first Waldorf school was founded in 1919.

Basically all of them, 22 of 25 volumes, are accessible for free online, published by Steinerbooks.

They document the inspirational source of Steiner Waldorf education, 90 years ago.

In that perspective, one can find it interesting how a number of educationalists, like Ernest L Boyer, Former President, Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, Jack Miller, Professor, Coordinator of Holistic and Aesthetic Education in the Department of Curriculum, Teaching and Learning at the University of Toronto, Paul Bayers, (earlier) Professor at Teachers College, Columbia University, Joseph Weizenbaum, Professor (now emeritus), MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology), author of Computer Power and Human Reason, Kenneth Chenault, Chairman and CEO of American Express, former Waldorf student (Waldorf School of Garden City) and others, comment on it almost a century later, with today on the order of 1,000 schools world wide.

Hi WKMum,

Ha ha,yes choosing schools is a nightmare ! I know exactly what you mean about it being a tough profession,my husband is a music bizz manager and was in a band and a producer before doing that,he almost tried to put our dd off ! There was no stopping her and she works really hard at school,all vocational in the morning and academic subjects in the afternoon,she also chooses to do six hours of street dance a week outside school and has recorded five songs.She comes home with stories of the kids breaking into six part harmonies to sing Happy Birthday to someone in the middle of a lesson
and how they were all in tears as an acting improvisation was so moving etc !
We knew she wasn't academic so helped her pursue what she was good at and found easy in comparison to school work,( she's like your dd,she can learn a Beyonce song after a couple of listens but is only just getting her head around long division ) Because she is doing well and impressing the school with her vocational work she has gained so much confidence and that seems to have helped her academic work,she is now average in her English class which I couldn't have imagined a year ago ( she started this school in September ).

Also there are many avenues of work in the profession,especially if your dd is good at dance or singing as well as acting.Anyway as you say shes only 8, you'll know for sure in the next couple of years I'd say . Do you know though that a lot of the theatre school start at year 6 ?

I remember with my dd that school work was such a struggle at age 8,she couldn't really read well at all and Maths just wasn't happening ! She's 14 now and has been reading age appropriate books since age 10 and writes a good story,she does really well in class discussions and presentations and I can't believe how its all come together,apart from Maths but at least she's not scared off it anymore and doesn't get angry doing her homework !

Maimuna

hello Maimuna! It sounds brilliant. Confidence helps with everything doesn't it, even maths

Well Mr Tizian, my little smörgåsbord of red herrings, it hardly matters whether the Mystic Barmpot wrote his work down or said it in his lectures (there were a lot of lectures, so he said a lot of stuff, some of it more hair-raising than other stuff depending on his audience) - it's in written form now. Actually you can listen to it too on Rudolf Steiner audio. You could even put it on your ipod & go for a reflective stroll (not recommended for those with high blood-pressure or pre-existing Steiner school fees)

I think we might be seeing here your 'plethora of evidence' especially when you cite a 'Coordinator of Holistic and Aesthetic Education'

WKMum - I see from another thread that you believe:
'The trouble is, some of the really ardent anti-Waldorfers sound almost as fervent and cultish as the purportedly, erm, 'eccentric' Steiner teachers ... (No doubt this post will be pulled now!)'

That's a bit of a 'mic left on' moment, eh?

I've no idea why your post would be pulled. It just seems so unkind, so lacking in empathy for the parents who've been so honest & kind in helping & supporting each other on these threads, as maimuna herself had done several times, as Steve Walden does on the WASSO survivor's group. But as I've already said, nothing would surprise those 'anti-Waldorfians' - except perhaps that their concerns were taken as seriously as they deserve.

You take care now.

Hi WKMum

I see your dilemma; you've had some great advice though here on this thread. The posts advocating caution from people with first hand knowledge don't seem in the least "cultish" but genuine answers to your question, even if they aren't the answers you were hoping to receive. Perhaps you've made up your mind already and want reassurance.

The schools are often superficially seductive, all that wood and pastel colours. Some seem like a sort of bohemian public school- private school education lite, with their beautiful grounds and buildings.

Our children started at state primary & moved to Steiner- eldest was 9 I think. Our reasons were probably much the same as the one's you're struggling with now- teaching to the test and not enough creativity, but I can assure you, the Steiner curriculum didn't fulfill the promises they'd offered creatively, or in nurturing the "whole child". The bullying was terrible, teaching bad and boring. When the full realisation of anthroposophic rule of law dawned on us we were shaken to the core; I was outraged that teaching and decisions centered around karma, reincarnation etc had been made about our children. It is duplicitous.

Most people tend to move their children from Steiner to a "normal" secondary school, so you probably won't get many who have had the experience you're after. I suspect people move to other schools so their children get a reasonable stab at GCSE's. (I think many Steiner schools often allow only a maximum of 5 but I could be wrong.) Interestingly, some of the anthroposophical parents round here chose private boarding schools over Steiner schools -perhaps they know something others don't.

As some of the others have said, I could imagine it would be hard to slot in easily to Steiner school at 11, it is so very very different, not just the pedagogy, but the children are different because they have been in that closed and frankly odd community.

Your dd is so very young. Things change so much in such a short space of time. We all want the best for our dc's, but "special" and "different" in the case of Steiner school may not be what you're hoping for.

I came on this site to get advice about Steiner schools and I can honestly say I have been overwhelmed by the response I have had: it has given me a lot to think about and I have been genuinely grateful (and expressed this over and over) to everyone who has posted such thoughtful and considered comments - often opening up about clearly very personal and emotive experiences. Once again: thank you all.

RestlessNative: I was certainly aware that any MNetter might read what I had written in my post on another thread: writing anything in a forum read by thousands of people every day is not like having a private conversation in the back of a car, now is it?!

My comment about anti-Waldorfers sounding fervent or cultish had nothing to do with people contributing to this thread. However, some of the things I have read on anti-Walforf forums seem to me to be rather intense. I am not talking about the negative experiences people's DCs have had at Steiner schools, which are obviously extremely sad, but the lengths some 'antis' go to to analyze the methodology in such enormous detail - it seems to become a fixation. Perhaps it is a form of cartharsis, in which case I hope it works for them.

The mention of the thread being pulled (which I intended to be a joke, but maybe that wasn't obvious) was a reference to the fact that I was criticizing Steiner teachers: from what I had observed from earlier Steiner threads on MN, the posts of people who did so seemed to vanish.

Anyway, in case anyone is still unclear: I am very grateful to all who have commented here.

Steiner is probably not my preferred option for my DD: but, since there was a school near to us, I felt it was important to check out what it might have to offer. I think I have now formed a much better understanding of that, although I also think I have a lot more to learn.

This is, in essence, what I have understood about Steiner schools:

1. It is probably quite likely that it will be difficult for my DD to integrate into the Steiner system later on because it very different from the state system and the class will have been together for a number of years already forming a strong bond.

1. While Steiner may offer a less stressful/exam-based education than mainstream UK schooling, it is based on some rather unusual principles that are quasi-religious and involve children believing in fairies, gnomes, karma and reincarnation.

1. Bullying can be rife at some schools because there are no structures in place to tackle it and because teachers often don't wish to intervene, believing it is the result of karma.

1. Some Steiner teachers are great and some DCs have had a positive experience of Steiner schools.

1. Some Steiner teachers are terrible and some DCs have had an extremely negative experience of Steiner schools.

1. Steiner schools tend not to be very open about the anthro basis that lies at the root of their teaching, which leaves many parents angry that they weren't better informed before subscribing their children to the Steiner system.

1. Most Steiner schools put a cap on the number of GCSEs you can take.

Please feel free to add to this list if you think I have missed anything out.

As I have repeatedly said, I am keeping a completely open mind about all the schools that might be suitable for my DD and exploring them as fully as I can.

Thanks so much for sharing your expert knowledge and take care all!

Thing is, I was emailed that comment of yours by another mumsnetter who was quite upset about it. When parents find out that a school hasn't been honest with them about its core beliefs they can be quite distressed. Again, the whole business is a kind of joke to you as you admit but it isn't a joke when it happens to your dc. So perhaps you can see how insensitive it seemed. And, with all due respect, you certainly do have more to learn about that nearby school.

Can you understand why these things might need to be analysed? If those 'anti-Waldorfians' (funny word in a UK context) hadn't tried to understand & explain the history & philosophy behind the Steiner pedagogy, they wouldn't be able to support the parents who are trying now to make sense of their Waldorf school experiences. My own experience wasn't particularly bad & I've not needed their help but I can see the courage & persistence in the work you say is a 'fixation'. I take my hat off to the Waldorf Steiner critics/skeptics in the US, Sweden, Norway, Germany, the UK, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, The Netherlands...

More importantly, if this thread is being read by Steiner parents, ex-parents or those considering a Steiner school for their dcs, I hope it's useful. I think it has shown that it's possible to talk about your experiences here with the normal discretion but without fear, which you should be able to do on a parents' forum in a free country. Best wishes to all lurkers

Dear RN,

I don't think it's fair to say that 'the whole business is a kind of joke' to me, given that I have repeatedly expressed concern and sympathy for those who have had a bad experience of Steiner education, and gratitude to them for sharing their stories with me.

Nor do I think it is unreasonable for me to suggest that opinion is divided over Steiner teaching, that emotions run high about it and that there are some extreme views in both camps, which is all I was effectively saying. (I used the term 'anti-Waldorf' because I was given a link on this thread to a site called 'waldorfcritics.org'; I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by 'funny word in a UK context'.)

Like I'm sure all MNetters do for their DCs, I take my DD's education very seriously, and to that end, I am once again grateful to all posters for sharing in what I think has been a very informative (for me) and open debate.

I would be interested to hear more about the other forms of alternative schooling that you mention Steve Walden knows about. I know you said they are not in my part of the country (South East), but I am still curious to hear about the alternatives. Do you mean Summerhill? (DH's mother and sibs went there for a while - years ago, obviously. It was a bit of a mixed experience for them, I think.)

Anyway, I wish everyone's DCs all the best with their schooling and I sincerely hope that not everyone reading my posts has been left with the impression that I am an unkind and inconsiderate person.

Restless - "my little smörgåsbord of red herrings" has to be my MN qoute of the year so far

I'd just like to say thank you to WKMum for starting such an interesting discussion.
I'e been fascinated because a few years ago when my husband might have been relocating to Edinburgh I was quite interested from the publicity, in maybe sending my children to the Steiner school there.
I'm kind of relieved that move never happened now.

Then next time, WKMum, you could think before you write. 'fervent and cultish' isn't just expressing the fact that opinion is divided. You haven't the first idea what you're talking about.

LauraIngallsWilder

Restless you may be waiting some time for that 'plethora of evidence'

I don't tend to post on MN anymore, especially about Steiner ed, MN used to feel a safe place for me to talk about my experiences (I had a dc in a Steiner school and lived in what became a Steiner community as families moved in) and then someone came along pretending to be a mother calling himself Eva52. This person is a follower of anthroposophy (the philosophy behind Steiner Waldorf). He was outed by other posters as he apparently trawls parenting forums for any criticism and posts links to his many positive websites, he also posts using the names Thebee, Rose, Excalibor and Tizian and now others.

I've often wondered why Mumsnet has never banned him, this is not a free speech issue, this is an individual who represents a school movement in which many parents here have had incredibly distressing experiences. He deliberately intimidates, subverts and behaves in an personally abusive manner and when parents have tried to fight back their posts get deleted. I am astonished that he is still allowed to post here.

The Steiner Waldorf movement is not honest about what the underlying philosophy (anthroposophy) actually is and so parents wishing to make an informed decision or make sense of some of the behaviour and actions of the schools would come here to discuss and support each other. Posters like Northernrefugee39 and Restlessnative have tried to make sense of this for other mumsnetters.

Tizian has threatened legal action if he sees a post he doesn't like (a quick search and you'll find literally hundreds of posts which have disappeared, I also believe whole threads have been pulled due to his threats). So WKMum and others new on here may find it quite disorientating as some of the parents are writing in a rather cryptic way in order to not get this thread pulled. It is no wonder that some of the writing appears odd.

What is worth mentioning is that Tizian recently appeared on another forum and when asked specifically about his threats to sue he replied:

"I wasn?t pretending I could sue you for it.

When I described and describe your link page as promoting libel, defamation and badmouthing of Waldorf educstion and schools, I refer to the factual meaning of the words, what they normally mean to people, not the limited legal sense ".

comment 99

liberalconspiracy.org/2010/03/18/tories-offer-state-funding-to-schools-linked-to-occult-society/

WKMum - I haven't direct experience of MH but a quick look at one of their newsletters from last month reveals cases of measles and mumps in the school:

"Measles and Mumps
We now have a case of Measles in the
Middle school. If you suspect measles
we recommend you ring your GP
rather than taking the child into the
Health Centre because of the risk of
spreading the infection.
Mumps is also still being reported in
all areas of school.
Susanne Fuller, First Aid".

Friday 19th of March Newsletter

hey Barking - Unity & libcon roam mumsnet at last, like rough, unruly beasts of politics through a forest of duplo ;)

The measles outbreak in the UK school you mantion is nothing new. Measles outbreaks have been associated with Steiner Waldorf schools across Europe. Here's an overview from scienceblogs: Austrian Anthroposophy Waldorf School Hit by Measles Outbreak

Parents at MH & other Steiner schools would be well advised to make sure their dcs are vaccinated. This of course protects dcs who for any reason can't have the jabs, as well as your own dcs. I hope no one reading this finds it too upsetting.

Lovely to see you Barking btw. And cheers. You're amazing

Re. the 'cryptic' speech; ironic, isn't it, that just such a style of communication becomes second nature to Waldorf teachers and their apologists - and yet we ex-Steiner parents are obliged to revert to it on threads like these?

Hi Restless I remember receiving a parcel that had been delivered to us by mistake and when I called round to give it to the neigbour the son opened the door and his poor face and neck had ballooned to twice the size due to the mumps, he could barely speak he was in such agony

I sincerely hope his parents knew what they were doing, though I suspect not as the mother used to busy herself all day dyeing silk play cloths and the father was a Steiner teacher.

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper - what a fab name yes truly bizarre, if MN isn't willing to ban Tizian and his assistants perhaps we can create a thread just for them - they can post all the bloody links they want and their carefully crafted celebrity list and leave the rest of us to chat as it was in the good old days.

Now that Tizian has clarified his unique application of legal terminology perhaps we can look forward to all our old posts and threads being reinstated...

If anyone is wondering where Tizian/Thebee/Eva52/Rose/Excalibor is someone has sent me a link to his latest activity - this appears to be quite some hobby as he's now threatening a Swedish newspaper and having some success, he has managed to get quite a lot of the less favourable posts deleted and is now busy trying to derail the comments board.

He now wishes to be known as Fred

The letter in question is calling for a new Steiner Waldorf teacher training course in Sweden (a previous course at Stockholm University had been ejected on the grounds that the material was 'unscientific and downright dangerous').

Choice! Diversity!

It's a truly delicious name, yes. But I think of you as Lady Perpetual - is that OK?

Here's a statement from the VC of Stockholm University about the course those Swedish celebs are trying to get reinstated (it's google translate) Waldorf Education at Stockholm University

'It is the faculty board's responsibility to ensure quality education in science, and indeed to "put themselves up as judges" as the reader iuttrycker it, the contents of the training that the university arranges, and literature is simply not up to standard. I fully agree with the assessment of the Board, after taking note of the elements of literature. Some of the content is not only scientifically untenable, it is simply untrue.'

And unless it's become 'true' since, it would still be scientifically untenable. As was the course content of the Steiner teacher training course at the University of Plymouth (now closed) and imo that of every other Steiner Waldorf teacher training course anywhere in the world.

I think I should bow out of this thread now, since RN thinks I 'haven't the first idea what I'm talking about', which is completely true - but, of course, is also the reason I started the OP - to try to become better informed.

Truth be told, I am understanding less and less of what is being posted here and becoming more and more confused!

I sincerely apologise to anyone I might have unwittingly offended with anything I've posted: I have nothing but thanks to everyone for so generously offering their personal experiences.

I do think I am still within my rights to maintain that, IMHO, from things I have read elsewhere - not on this site, which is something I never suggested - that there are people in both camps (anti- and pro-Steiner/Waldorf) who seem 'fervent' (impassioned) and 'cultish' (devoted to an idea), and that this therefore makes it all the more difficult for people like myself, who are not blessed with enormous brains, to decipher it all.

However, I do want to thank everyone for taking the time to contribute to this thread: I am indebted to you all - if now somewhat daunted at the prospect of posting anything on MN ever again!

Warmest regards to you all!