Moving to Steiner for Secondary School from State Primary

[WKMum]

Hello!

Advice sought from all you very knowledgeable Mums and Dads out there!

I realize I may be opening a can of worms with this post, but I have tried to make my way through the various other Steiner threads on MN and, despite their being very long and rambling, very few of the posts seem to address my particular situation, so please forgive me for starting up another debate.

I am posting this in the Secondary School thread, because I am not interested in the whole Steiner Early Years 'To Read Or Not To Read' debate.

My DD is eight years old and in Y3 at our local state primary school. She is strong at the more 'creative' subjects, such as writing and drama, but her maths is poor and she is in the 'lower set'. (Personally, I have an issue with the idea of 'streaming' children as young as seven, as I think it gives their confidence a terrible knock, and only serves to dint their interest in the subject even further - but that is another discussion!)

We live in a GS area, and a large number of the children at DD's school will go on to GS. My daughter's teacher has indicated, however, that she is unlikely to pass the 11+. (Information I was given, rather than requested.) Although I appreciate it is early to make this call, and nothing is set in stone, I am nonetheless currently exploring the other options.

The one aim I have for my DD is that she is happy in her secondary school. Academic achievement is not the 'be all and end all' in my opinion, and I am not inclined to have her intensely coached to pass the 11+, as I know a lot of people around here do, just so she can then be at the bottom of a very large pile of very bright/pushed kids, which I think would just undermine her confidence.

My preference for her would be a small, non-selective indie, in which she can feel comfortably average in most subjects and have enough one-to-one attention to be encouraged to reach her full potential in the subjects she enjoys.

With this in mind, DH and I went to see our local Steiner school. I was impressed by the ethos and the way the children seemed happy and engaged with what they were doing, and the teachers seemed relaxed but in control. The facilities were also good - theatre, sports hall, library etc.

As I understand it, Steiner schools do vary a lot, but I would be very interested to hear from any Steiner parents or pupils (former or current) who have experienced the transition from state primary school to Steiner school at age 11 (i.e. mid-way through the Steiner 'Lower School'). Was it a difficult transition to make - particularly given that you would be joining a class of children and teacher who have been together from the age of seven? Did the school feel very different from state primary? Better or worse?

Also, how did the school approach GCSEs and 'A' Level preparation within the Steiner methodology? Do you feel you had adequate help and encouragement without being pressured?

This will probably make me sound like a hippie - even though there is not an incense stick to be seen in my house! - but I am a great believer in 'the journey' being just as important as the destination, and I am worried about my DD's character being 'crushed' by what I see as the high-pressured environment of the current educational model favoured in most UK state schools.

However, should my DD wish to take exams when she is older and ready to make that decision for herself, I would want her to be adequately prepared. I'd love to know from anyone whether they think the Steiner method would work in this regard.

Thanks so much for reading this post. I apologise that it's rather long, but I wanted to try to make clear the sort of feedback/advice I am looking for.

Could I kindly ask everyone to please avoid posting potentially libelous comments on this thread, as I know this is a highly-emotive subject and do not want to get MN into any trouble.

Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

I am certainly open-minded about Steiner, and I do feel I now have more of the tools I need to reach a decision either way.

I have already visited the Steiner school I am considering and have spoken at length with a couple of the teachers. However, I intend to go back with my daughter to see what she thinks about it, as well, and, thanks to the advice and links given here, will have a lot more questions to raise before we come to a final decision.

My DD is only in year 3 at present and we are still keeping an open mind about all schools.

Thanks again for your comments and thoughts.

WKMum
You may find the UK Anthroposophy useful

Information which doesn't paint the perfect picture is deleted

The arbitration pages (there are many) about Steiner waldorf on wikipedia are well documented
A user called thebee seems to have caused seeming incivility, deletions, personal attacks, moreover thebee's conduct was criticised by experienced editors and mentors. Thebee is criticised for using his own webpages as a definitive source of reference.
Wikipedia's information should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Hope this link works

UK journalist writes here

Australian article here

UK Anthroposophy has certainly become a very popular site, I imagine with politicians as well as journalists. Mike Collins is a scrupulous researcher of anthroposophy in the UK and its relationship to Steiner Waldorf education. The site has its own lawyer and cannot fairly be accused of harbouring libelous content. Indeed it's difficult to know who anyone on mumsnet could be libeling, since it isn't possible to libel the dead (ie Rudolf Steiner) and there's no concrete international Steiner Waldorf Movement to own the brand, as there is with a multi-national company like Nestle or Shell or Mcdonalds. Mumsnetters have been careful not to mention individuals or particular schools, for the sake of the dcs and families involved as much as anything. Having said that, it's easy to understand mumsnet's anxiety.

As explanation, mumsnet supports libel reform and has been following the recent Simon Singh libel case, the conclusion of which is discussed by skeptic lawyer Jack of Kent here The case drew attention to the disputed claims made by chiropractors and to the behaviour of the BCA - in other words there were unintended consequences for those bringing a charge of libel. I can't imagine it would be in anyone's interests, least of all any Steiner school, interested individual or anthroposophical initiative to sue mumsnet with regard to comments made on this site concerning Steiner Waldorf education, even if they felt they had any reason to do so.

Imo the issue of libel in this case is a (Swedish) red herring.

WKMum - I really wish you luck. It's still early days, as you say and things could change by the time your dd is ready for her next school, particularly when we know what's happening after May 6th. It's absolutely right that gs is not for every child especially if it's a struggle to keep up with maths. I have a dd about the same age as yours and like you, I just want her to be happy at school. I've been the Steiner route some years ago and wouldn't want to go there again - there's been enough good, critical advice on this thread already for me not to need to add any more.

I notice that there's now a news section on UK Anthroposophy useful to anyone considering Steiner Waldorf education. Mike Collins invites 'interesting, funny or illuminating' items related to this theme, so it should be interesting.

Once again, imo there's no reason to fear that referring to or linking to UK Anthroposophy is potentially libelous in any way since the blog's legal adviser can be confident that its content is fair comment or honest opinion.

As are the comments of mumsnetters expressing their own opinions and reflections on their experience or impressions of Steiner Waldorf education, good as well as bad.

Thanks so much for posting that link, RN - although I kind of can't bring myself to read in to all this thoroughly, too guilt-inducing.

I just wish I'd had access to all this information before uprooting my DCs and putting them among these people.

At least now there's another view available for people in the position I was then.

A site that adresses most of the basic questions and myths about Steiner Waldorf education is Waldorf Answers.

Most Steiner Waldorf schools will let you send your child for 3 to five day trails.
So you could try that. I would personally be wary of PLANS but read it anyway they certainly set out to shock you. The problem with a lot of the critics is that they give you their point of view based on limited experience some admit they have just read blogs and have not been near a school. There is a lot of hear say and not enough substance. I have had my children at a Waldorf School for 10 years and though not perfect I am very happy how they are taught and looked after.

FWIW, the Catholic Church considers Anthroposophy to be a religion, one of occult-based mysticism. It was condemned in 1919, with no change since.

I hope you don't feel guilty OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper

I don't agree - my impression is that nearly everyone on the US site PLANS (People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools) has had experience of Steiner Waldorf education as a pupil, a parent or/and Waldorf teacher. Many have had years of experience. PLANS acts as a home for diverse stories and as information for parents or students who may be bewildered by their experiences. It contains a link to a private Steiner Survivors' Group so, far from setting out to scare, its aim is to support. Of course it isn't popular with its detractors but there are plenty of places to find positive Waldorf stories which nobody will try to stop you reading.

Well, I must say thanks to everyone for posting all this useful, if conflicting, information. It is taking me a while to get through it all: certainly, the Steiner methodology seems to raise people's heart rates (maybe in the fifth chamber?!)

Personally, I was just trying to find a school not too far from where we live, in which my non-academic daughter might find a comfortable place to grow emotionally and spiritually without feeling pressured to achieve anything other than internal well-being and happiness.

TheCaty: I would be interested to hear more about your experience of Steiner schools: so few people posting mention their children's experiences of Steiner from age 11+, which is when we would be considering a move to Steiner.

Thanks so much to everyone!

There is a place in which your DD can grow emotionally and spiritually and achieve internal well-being and happiness; it's called your home and the love and security of her family.

School is for education IMO, and as long as she's surrounded by kind, professional people and good friends, plus the support and care I'm sure you provide at home, she'll be fine.

Hmm.. absolutely right Lady Perpetual. Beautifully said.

There are good reasons why people are unusually wary of the Steiner methodology. And it's a bit unkind to call it 'raising heart rates'. Would you call the international reaction to events in certain Catholic institutions 'raised heartbeats?' and joke about it? (And there's no doubt that the Catholic Church in the UK takes this very seriously.)

Frankly WKMum, you're not making a lot of sense. First you say you're concerned that your dd wouldn't get through a maths 11+ exam and that she's 'getting one-to-one maths tutoring once a week with a lovely private teacher' - in itself not unusual with parents who'd like their dc to go to gs, even though you admit she's only in class 3.

Then you say you want a school where she can.. grow 'without feeling pressured to achieve anything other than internal well-being and happiness.' So why the maths tutoring now?

Personally, if all you're looking for from an educational establishment is 'internal well-being and happiness', I should think you're asking a very great deal from a school, it's teachers and the curriculum as well as missing the point of education. Even if a dc isn't 'academic' at 11 (in which case gs wouldn't be right) it's surprising how dc's can develop and achieve great results later with the support of school and home.

I have to say, I hadn't realised your DD was so young.
In that case, I think her teacher was out of order to make a judgement on the likelihood of passing 11+.

And anyway, it's worth you finding out what the 11+ actually entails in your area before deciding on this.

This information is there in the public realm, past papers are available, and there is a very vocal forum - I will find a link for you.

In my area the 11+ exam is pure verbal reasoning.
This does include numerical and logical concepts, but not strictly in the form of sums as such.

FWIW, I have a DS in y4 and I wouldn't dream of starting prep for gs until y5 at the earliest, and then it will entail practising past papers and gradually going through the different 'types' of questions.

DS1 is in y10 at gs and DD y7.

11+ forum.
you can search for your area.

You could also phone your LEA who will tell you the exam format - no secrets - and Amazon have several books and practise papers, including 'Bond: A Parent's Guide to a Stress-Free 11+,'

Yes, you're right and a lot can change between yrs 3 & 5. The biggest problem for dcs in state primary schools is that they may not have covered the maths curriculum by the time they take 11+ exams, often in November.

Again, a great deal may change in education in the next few years - no one is sure how. There's always the possibility that the local community college will be the best bet after all, plus there appears to be a will to address what many teachers believe is an overtly exam-based culture.

The issue for Steiner schools remains the difficulty of finding teachers now that there's no state funded Steiner training course in the UK and other anthroposophical institutions are closing at a significant rate. I would be wary of entrusting a dc to a system that appears to be in free-fall.

gnomerus sorry - posted at same time as you.

All I can add from my experience is that late-comers could at least read and write, which helps. But learning the meaning behind the pedagogy late can be particularly shocking, especially when parents realise that some bizarre decision made by a teacher is based on a dc's 'karma'.

Dear RestlessNative and OLOPS: thank you very much for your posts.

Firstly, I'd like to say that I absolutely didn't wish to upset anyone with my comment about the subject of Steiner raising people's heartbeats. All I meant was that it seemed to be a subject people felt very strongly about one way or another. I have looked at only a few of the case studies on PLANS and none of the ones I have read so far mentioned any form of physical abuse of the abhorrent kind you allude to. Obviously, it goes without saying that such things are completely intolerable in any school whatsoever, and I would never EVER wish to imply otherwise. I can only apologise profusely to anyone that might have thought I meant that.

I realize that some people have had extremely negative experiences of Steiner, and I would never wish to belittle the pain this might have caused them and their families.

The allusion I made to the heartbeat was simply to do with something I had read about Steiner suggesting there was a fifth chamber in the heart - I genuinely meant it to be a throwaway quip and nothing more. So, once again, apologies if that was misinterpreted.

However, I think it is fair to say that while terrible things can happen in lots of different schools, that doesn't make all teachers terrible people. When I started this thread, I thought that might also be the case with Steiner schools - some may be better than others - and I simply wanted to try to get some information from people on their direct experiences of Steiner at secondary school level: what the transition from state to Steiner was like; whether it worked for them. I now have an enormous amount of information to read and digest about Steiner before we, as a family, come to any decision either way.

Secondly, I did make it clear in my original post how old my DD was and the fact that I was merely exploring all the options available to her at age 11, because it is quite obvious that it is still far too early to be making any final decisions regarding her future. I simply want to be as well-informed as possible to be able to help guide her through this transition period as smoothly as possible when the time comes.

Thanks for the link to the 11+ forum. I have lots of friends whose DCs have been through the 11+ in this part of the country, so I have a pretty good idea of what it entails. In this area, there are papers in VR, NVR and Maths, as well as a written paper - although this is only taken into consideration in the case of an appeal, as I understand it. I have borrowed copies of practice tests just to have a look at the level, and I have to say they seem pretty tough to me. Of course, once again, I am keeping an open mind about this. Children change and grow so much in a couple of years. If my DD decides that all her friends are sitting the 11+ and she wants to have a go, I will do all I can to support her. However, it seemed to make a lot of sense to me look at the other possibilities in our area as well.

(Incidentally, I would like to say that, although I don't really agree with it, I do understand why my DD's school teacher mentioned that she was unlikely to pass the 11+ - it's because so many people in this area do want their children to take it, so the teachers are under a lot of pressure to 'deliver' on this. She is actually very supportive of our decision to explore other options.)

Personally, I'm not really pro-tutoring and I'm certainly anti-coaching, which I see as a big distinction. However, DH felt it might help DD's confidence to have a little one-to-one time with a former maths teacher who lives down the road once a week, just so DD doesn't lose interest in learning about maths altogether. She has been very despondent about it since she was put in the 'bottom set' at school (something that, as I mentioned in my first post, I think is a very negative thing to do to young children) and she was often in tears about doing the weekly maths homework set by her school. I think I would call this form of tutoring 'hand-holding' rather than 'pushing', and it follows on from two years of trying to help her myself without success (DD usually stomps off in a terrible rage...)

You are right, Restless Native, I am asking a lot from a school and I realize that, almost certainly, whatever decision we come to in the end, we will wonder 'what if?' about all the other options we rejected.

Nearer the time, I will be taking my DD to see for herself all the schools we are considering, so that it can be a decision she enters into herself with our love and support. I just hope that, by then, I will have learnt enough to be able to do my best by her and set her off on a good footing for her next life journey.

Thanks again to all who have contributed to this discussion: I greatly appreciate all your advice, concern and interest.