Moving to Steiner for Secondary School from State Primary

[WKMum]

Hello!

Advice sought from all you very knowledgeable Mums and Dads out there!

I realize I may be opening a can of worms with this post, but I have tried to make my way through the various other Steiner threads on MN and, despite their being very long and rambling, very few of the posts seem to address my particular situation, so please forgive me for starting up another debate.

I am posting this in the Secondary School thread, because I am not interested in the whole Steiner Early Years 'To Read Or Not To Read' debate.

My DD is eight years old and in Y3 at our local state primary school. She is strong at the more 'creative' subjects, such as writing and drama, but her maths is poor and she is in the 'lower set'. (Personally, I have an issue with the idea of 'streaming' children as young as seven, as I think it gives their confidence a terrible knock, and only serves to dint their interest in the subject even further - but that is another discussion!)

We live in a GS area, and a large number of the children at DD's school will go on to GS. My daughter's teacher has indicated, however, that she is unlikely to pass the 11+. (Information I was given, rather than requested.) Although I appreciate it is early to make this call, and nothing is set in stone, I am nonetheless currently exploring the other options.

The one aim I have for my DD is that she is happy in her secondary school. Academic achievement is not the 'be all and end all' in my opinion, and I am not inclined to have her intensely coached to pass the 11+, as I know a lot of people around here do, just so she can then be at the bottom of a very large pile of very bright/pushed kids, which I think would just undermine her confidence.

My preference for her would be a small, non-selective indie, in which she can feel comfortably average in most subjects and have enough one-to-one attention to be encouraged to reach her full potential in the subjects she enjoys.

With this in mind, DH and I went to see our local Steiner school. I was impressed by the ethos and the way the children seemed happy and engaged with what they were doing, and the teachers seemed relaxed but in control. The facilities were also good - theatre, sports hall, library etc.

As I understand it, Steiner schools do vary a lot, but I would be very interested to hear from any Steiner parents or pupils (former or current) who have experienced the transition from state primary school to Steiner school at age 11 (i.e. mid-way through the Steiner 'Lower School'). Was it a difficult transition to make - particularly given that you would be joining a class of children and teacher who have been together from the age of seven? Did the school feel very different from state primary? Better or worse?

Also, how did the school approach GCSEs and 'A' Level preparation within the Steiner methodology? Do you feel you had adequate help and encouragement without being pressured?

This will probably make me sound like a hippie - even though there is not an incense stick to be seen in my house! - but I am a great believer in 'the journey' being just as important as the destination, and I am worried about my DD's character being 'crushed' by what I see as the high-pressured environment of the current educational model favoured in most UK state schools.

However, should my DD wish to take exams when she is older and ready to make that decision for herself, I would want her to be adequately prepared. I'd love to know from anyone whether they think the Steiner method would work in this regard.

Thanks so much for reading this post. I apologise that it's rather long, but I wanted to try to make clear the sort of feedback/advice I am looking for.

Could I kindly ask everyone to please avoid posting potentially libelous comments on this thread, as I know this is a highly-emotive subject and do not want to get MN into any trouble.

Hello Gnomes

Yep, hook, line & sinker. My ds reminds me of this frequently. Fortunately there's a spell-check on his computer ;)

Everybody buys into it for good reasons, thinking it'll provide something they're usually able to create themselves. They ignore the signs that something's wrong, especially if their own dcs are OK or have a kind & capable teacher (this was our experience) But the moment the teacher changes or something goes wrong for their dc, odd stuff happens. Then people dig & find they weren't really told the truth about their dc's school, or they tell themselves it's their own fault, or they slip away.

Honesty is the important thing.

WKMum - no worries, I just thought it was a bit unkind. But those who've been through such experiences are used to people belittling their concerns, so I expect nothing would surprise them.

What does 'enter into herself' mean? Where is she now?

Take it easy

Thank you for your very honest posts, Gnomes: I appreciate the directness of what you say and will certainly keep it all in mind.

I would not move my DD at the moment, since she is quite happy at her primary school, so I wouldn't want her to leave there before she has to.

Steiner is just one of many options we are considering, and I am perfectly prepared to accept that it will have negative aspects to it: that is why I came on this forum - for precisely these kind of insights. Of course, other schools also have negative aspects to them - bullying, pressure to do well in tests, gang culture, social cliques, etc - so it is a case of trying to find the best we possibly can for our DD from the options that are out there.

I am genuinely grateful to everyone who has posted and I wish all of your DCs every future success with their education.

Does anyone else get the impression the OP wants us all to shut up and just go away?

Yes, bullying and social cliques do happen in other schools, but at least there are strategies in place to deal with them and people in charge are answerable to some degree.
No child is expected to put up with it because that's his 'karma', and a parent's concern is unlikely to be poo-poo'd with 'oh, so and so's harmless, he's got a good heart.'
likewise, older children wouldn't be brought into a classroom to physically extricate a 'naughty' 9 yo hiding under the table. (Happened in my DS's class and I've since learned is common practise.
And there can't be many schools where, when the issue of making the grounds secure was raised by some parents, the comment from a senior member of staff was 'the angels will look after the children.'

I agree, the thread keeps being wound up (into a nice wool ball)

The fact I don't feel surprised anymore at that health & safety.. nonchalance is pretty telling.

Lady Perpetual, would it be better if there were a different thread with a simpler opening post?

Hand-carded wool of course.
Not sure what you mean about the OP being simpler; and I suppose I can't judge as I fell for it, as you say, 'hook, line and sinker.'
Scary to think how blinkered I was, which is why I find it frustrating when real information is possibly falling on deaf ears.
Anyway, as WK says, she has the information now so what transpires is quite rightly at her own discretion.

Self-washed hand-carded wool, you slacker!

No, I just meant that it might be easier for people to respond to your previous post if they didn't feel they ought to gear it to the initial question on this thread, which was a perfectly good question but which seems to have been answered - perhaps best by gnomes.

I know in the past people have avoided coming onto threads because posts were deleted & it seemed a hostile environment, or they didn't want to cause trouble for mumsnet (or irritate the people who said it had been 'done to death' or that everyone on Steiner threads is crazy.)

Lurkers' thread might be needed.

Thanks Gnomes: your posts have been truthful and very helpful.

I'm not trying to wind up the thread: I really am genuinely very grateful to everyone who has contributed to it so far, and would certainly be happy to hear from anyone else whose children made the transition from state to Steiner at secondary level. There's no particular story that I want to hear, I'm just trying to get as broad a spectrum of opinions/experiences as possible to help us make an informed choice.

I am going to go away and have a good read and a good think for a couple of years and see where we're at when my DD hits 10 years old: there isn't much more I can do in the meantime.

Thanks again to all!

If it's any help, I'm dealing with an 8yo DD at the moment who is very maths averse, but I have also dealt with her older sister, who hated all things school, and never cracked open a reading book except for books that she had to read until age 10, when she finally started buying into the whole school thing, after years of me pulling my hair out in frustration. She is now doing really well.

Part of what turned the older DD and the younger one off maths was the 'right' and 'wrong' aspect of it. With other subjects, especially art, they could express themselves and there was no right or wrong. For the same reason, they hated music lessons. Older DD was put off reading by the comprehension questions that accompanied the texts they read in school (again 'right' and 'wrong' answers) and by all the grammar they learned (more right and wrong). When older DD got to the point in school where creative writing and drama were introduced in English, and more logic and creativity (as opposed to getting sums and questions in the form of paragraphs) were required in maths, she started to like it a lot more. Plus the teacher had the class do book reviews on books that were over a certain length (and we found a long one she really loved); an opinion in a book review can't be right or wrong.

Younger DD is one of the youngest in her class, and she doesn't do very well with taking things impersonally. She really tries very hard, but experiences getting things wrong as a rejection and we have a cycle of frustration going on at the moment. It's a question for her, just as it was for her older sister, of developing maturity as much as developing mathematical skills.

Hello WKMum,

Interesting thread and I'll try to comment on your initial question regarding the transition into a Steiner secondary school. By way of introduction, I've been a moderator at the international Waldorf Anthroposophy Steiner Survivors Only (WASSO) Yahoo Group for eight years and have oodles of experience in the pros and cons of Steiner education. Many years ago I was a very pro-Steiner school parent.

While I would agree with many of thoughtful posts here, I also suggest you look deeper than simply the Steiner secondary school philosophy. In order to understand the Steiner pedagogy it is imperative that you look at the whole system - from K up. While I am a critic of things Steiner, if it is a question of either/or, (conventional vs. Steiner) based on what you have written, I think the Steiner secondary school model is at least worth considering . . . but ONLY if you are fully aware of - and comfortable with - its Anthroposophical foundation.

I can tell you with certainty that a visit to the school will NOT help you understand the reality of the program. You will need to read and research the same material the teachers use as they work with students. You will need to understand how teachers work with what they call the "souls" of students as they incarnate. Granted, perhaps not all teachers follow the occult foundation to the letter, but it is important for you to understand the model. While your daughter might find the transition easy, it could also be a very confusing experience; many Steiner schools are quite insular and seem strange to newcomers.

The main complaint I've heard over the years with regards to Steiner secondary schools revolves around groupthink. Although you might be told that students aged 14+ (a key part of the incarnation) are encouraged to ask questions (as opposed to early years of following the authority of the teacher), students are often discouraged from thinking critically - especially if such thinking involves questioning the teacher.

Although there is less emphasis on heavy academics and testing in Steiner education (a good think IMO), it is usually a controlled system of guiding students through various stages of life as they incarnate. This is what teachers learn in their training and I urge you to do your own research before confusion/frustration sets it, something I see far too often from applicants to our confidential support group.

Steiner supporters are usually reluctant to share the foundation - or raison d?être of their movement; thus the ongoing controversy.I would be very careful with Wikipedia as it is monitored (and edited) 24/7 by a few mission-driven Anthroposophists. One or two of them also maintain other sites - Americans for Waldorf, etc. I highly recommend reading Steiner as that is what motivates teachers on their spiritual journeys with the children in their care.

Sorry that I don't have lots of time to engage in further discussion - I stumbled on this chat while researching something else and thought I'd add my 2 cents as one with years of experience. It seems there are also others here with experience. Hope this helps.

Best wishes to you and your daughter,
-Steve Walden

Understanding Waldorf Education: Teaching from the Inside Out by Jack Petrash, a Steiner Waldorf teacher with 25 years of experience goes to the heart of Steiner Waldorf education, beyond ideological arguments in one or other direction. Personally, I'd recommend it.

Steve - I've not been on any survivors' forums but I have read your comments on the Yahoo group Waldorf Critics and have seen how thoughtful and generous you are with your observations. Lovely to see you here.

Not very good at critical thinking, Jack Petrash. Or thinking at all:

'When he was a child, Jack Petrash was taught ?about the benefits of asbestos.? Later, of course, asbestos was identified as a carcinogen. On this basis, Petrash argues that schools should not place too much emphasis on teaching children facts. ?This [e.g., society?s changed understanding of asbestos] is the obvious flaw in fact-based education. Whether we were taught about the solar system, the Soviet Union, or computers, much of what we had to learn in school is now outdated.? [Jack Petrash, UNDERSTANDING WALDORF EDUCATION (Gryphon House, 2002), p. 26.]'

From 'Today, Waldorf for the 21st century' by Roger Rawlings.

Oh dear.

anti-asbestos based education

the link to that last quote is here.

Really helpful guide through the maze by a former Steiner Waldorf pupil.

Well done Tub, perhaps you worry it takes an anthroposophist to find a book on Google ;)

Thanks restless-my thought was that some people, both anthroposophists and non-anthroposophists alike, might not be aware that a large portion of Understanding Waldorf Education:teaching from the inside out is available to read on-line through google books.

Thanks for all the helpful posts and further links.

Mathsanxiety: I sympathize with your situation a lot and I fully agree that only time will tell whether my DD's relationship to maths might improve. (Sadly, my own never did: I would have no chance at passing that 11+ maths paper myself, even now!)

Steve Walden: Thanks so much for posting; your advice is very informative and helpful and I really appreciate your considered, balanced approach. I certainly intend to become as informed as possible before embarking on the Steiner road for my daughter (and, don't worry, I don't regard Wiki as a reliable source for anything much at all!)

I'm very glad I started this thread, as it has brought in some great advice.

My sister had the misfortune of attending a Steiner school from the ages of 11 to 13 until my parents realised that it was not, despite the outside image, a healthy place conducive to a good future. Luckily they were sensible enough to take her out and put her in a local state school where she thrived and succeeded.

Thanks for sharing, Activate. I'm sorry to hear that your sister's experience of Steiner was so negative. May I ask whether she was at a state school prior to that?

The main reason I started this thread was to try to establish whether it was possible to transfer to Steiner at a later stage, or whether it was just too difficult to fit in to a different system later on.

Certainly, from what I am getting on this thread, it doesn't look like it would be a great success - and, of course, that's aside from the issues relating to Steiner's teaching methodology.

It's so strange how, when we visited the school and talked to the children, they all seemed to be quite happy and settled there. (There was a marked absence, for instance, of those poor anorexic girls that you see in so many girls indie schools where they are under so much pressure - and I know all about that, because I was one of those girls all those years ago.) They all said they'd had a great time at school. In the lessons we saw, they were doing chemistry, art, silver-smithing, German and geography - you name it! Of course, I understand that appearances can be deceptive, but it's alarming to think that so many of them must be unhappy.

I think my position is very similar to the one ShellingPeas's friends are in - obviously they live in the same area - and the options are disappointingly limited for less academically able children ...

Maybe I will start a thread about Beechwood and Sackville. I tried one on Battle Abbey, but got no replies! And, just to repeat myself, of course I know that we have another couple of years to see how my DD develops before we need to make any decisions.

At the moment, like a thousand other little girls, she has her heart set on a theatre arts school (Tring Park, Italia Conti, Arts Educational, etc.) but I'm worried that it's such a narrowing of options at such a young age (and, in general, such a confidence-bashing profession), that I'd rather she only embarked on that road at 16+ at the earliest, if she still felt inclined towards it.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the warnings, links, advice, comments - some of which is quite personal, so I am very grateful to you for sharing.

(p.s. That wasn't an attempt to close the thread: just a genuine proffering of thanks!)

I'm assuming you visited the school on an Open Day? I bet if you visited any Independent school (after all, they want you to pay the fees) you'd see the best they had to offer. And you wouldn't see dcs weeping in the corridors. I certainly hope the Steiner School at FR isn't full of unhappy children, that would be awful but your local community college isn't either, that isn't the point. The point is that the pedagogy of that Steiner school is entirely based on anthroposophy, which isn't a very good idea. Sooner or later things will go wrong.

I have a friend who transfered her dcs to the school you're talking about after positive experiences at two different, urban Steiner schools, one in the UK, the other elsewhere. She's a very bright, sensible woman. After a few months in the community around the school (which she thought was really odd) she realized that her dc's class teacher was acting in a frankly cruel, bewildering way towards her child: suggesting there was something wrong with her, criticizing her behaviour. My friend was used to putting her trust in Steiner teachers even if she didn't entirely understand their reasons (oh, it's anthro stuff, they know what they're doing) so at first she allowed her dc to 'go through' what she thought must be the difficult bits of the relationship... until even she accepted that the teacher's intentions were effectively malign, whatever she believed she was doing. Luckily the dcs (who are also very bright) are now happy in other (state) schools and whatever personality defects the first dc supposedly had (in fact she's delightful) didn't manifest again.

I dread to think what was going through that Steiner teacher's mind.. in fact that I have some idea what it might have been. Not good.

Of course you could have a duff teacher in any school - or discover that the nice little indy that looked so good at first is a bit old-fashioned and doesn't suit your dc in the long term. But the relationship Steiner children have with their class teacher is different, it's designed to be a much more intense relationship. With luck your dc could go all the way through perfectly happy (as long as you turn a blind-eye to those odd experiences and the rapid exits of other students and staff - Steiner schools have a brisk turnaround) and you don't mind the effect that the pedagogy might be having on her (how would you know?)

It is after all just school. You are a much more important part of your dc's life.

I wish her luck with the theatre arts school idea - I think you might need better advice on another thread about that. I suspect theatre school would give her a perfectly reasonable education anyway and how exciting to have those challenges as a teenager, whether or not she pursues theatre as a career.

Thanks for the additional info, RN, which is very helpful - and obviously sad for the DCs in question. I'm glad things have worked out OK for them in the end. Isn't it amazing that this school is in the Good Schools Guide given how many people have had bad experiences there?

Naturally, as I wrote in my post, I realize that appearances can be deceptive and that you never see the full picture of a school on an open day. That's precisely why I started this thread. I'm very glad that I have had the opportunity to hear all these stories and have been given access to more information on the Steiner methodology a long time before I have to come to any conclusions about it. I would have hated to arrive at Year 5 in a complete panic and made an ill-informed, rash decision, as so many others seem to have done before me - poor things!

As you may have noticed, I have started a thread about other non-selectives in the area, but so far I've had no responses. I might try to start one about theatre schools as well, since I can't find much in my searches on them. Hopefully, in the end, we will manage to find the most appropriate school for our DD. (I sometimes think that, after putting in all this leg work, DD will end up deciding that she wants to sit the 11+ and beg me for extra coaching so she can go to GS with her friends!)

What I find quite surprising, is that there are so many people out there who are looking for some form of alternative education for their children, but there just doesn't seem to be anything available other than Steiner.

I will, of course, be happy to support my DD whatever choices she makes about her future schooling when the time comes.

Thanks again!

Just to add to what RN posted -- my only brush with Steiner ed was a watercolour painting class that DD3 took when she would have been about 3 or 4. It was run by a Steiner teacher, but in a community hall and not under the aegis of the Steiner school where this teacher taught.

My DD produced what I thought were lovely, dreamy, very pastel watercolours (wet on wet method, rounded-edge, proper watercolour paper, and high quality brushes were used) and seemed to be enjoying the quiet and ordered atmosphere of the class.

However, the teacher was unhappy with DD's end results and let me know she thought there was definitely something wrong with her work. She didn't elaborate on her dissatisfaction, though, and I was puzzled about this until I read another Steiner thread here on MN where someone posted very helpful links that explained the whole painting thing.

So I would say, if you are thinking about Steiner, please educate yourself thoroughly first. Anthroposophy colours everything that is taught there, and the way everything is taught, and the aims of the school, and the way individual children are treated.

I would also say, if your DD is leaning towards the theatre or theatrical arts, and if she shows any talent in this area, then I would definitely encourage this. Even if she turns out not to have a showbiz career, there are lots and lots of openings for people with the kind of skills, both 'soft' and 'hard' that people with a theatrical background have. The direction she might end up going in might not be as obvious as a career track for someone with strong maths skills, but an education in the performing arts area can be very valuable. What you do with it afterwards is up to you, but the same can be said for every area you might study.