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Secondary education

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Not happy my 13 year 's class old had recruitment presentation from armed forces today

185 replies

isitmyturn · 23/09/2009 18:05

DS1 had a talk by someone from the Navy today. My gut reation is to be horrified with visions of my PFB going off to war.
I had no idea that "careers" advice started so soon and in this form?
He's just into year 8, very academic but worried that he doesn't know what he wants to do career wise. DH and I have tried to tell him not to worry, just work hard for now and he doesn't need to make a career choice until he's older.

OP posts:
piscesmoon · 24/09/2009 23:13

That is fair enough katiestar-however there is nothing wrong in them getting a balance with the other side. DCs are capable of making their own judgements. I think that people underestimate teenagers.

Iggi999 · 24/09/2009 23:31

If a school invites someone in to talk to their students, we are saying we think this would be a good organisation for them to work for - it legitimises them, IYSWIM. I wouldn't allow Macdonalds in to indoctrinate them either. Congrats on your free-thinking children, but EVERYONE is susceptible to advertising to some extent, and many young people aren't great at thinking out all the implications of their decisions. Do the talk in 6th year, if you really must.

scaryteacher · 25/09/2009 00:31

You stereotype methinks Iggi.

Firstly, this was an RN presentation, so NOT the Army. There are 3 services, all distinct and different. The Navy are the ones that go to sea in the ships and submarines. The RAF fly the planes and the Army fight on land. Have we got that?

Whilst the Navy (apart from the RM) do background work in Afghanistan, they are rarely involved in up close and personal fighting. The Falklands and some action around the Gulf were the last real shooting wars the RN was in, and the Falklands was a long time ago now.

The Forces don't want to indoctrinate people Iggi - they can think all for themselves and on their own, and lots of them are really quite clever. You both work for the same employer, HMG. You are both paid from the public purse. If they are not good to work for, as they are govt funded, the same then applies to you. Maybe you need to look at your own legitimacy to teach the crap that this government puts out via Citizenship, and the fact that you as a teacher are complicit in the dumbing down of the GCSEs. That's why lots of people use the private system.

I hope that you don't let your prejudices colour your attitude towards any staff members or students who have relatives and parents serving in HM Forces.

In fact, I would not want my ds to work with, or be taught by, some of the teachers I used to teach with, as I found some of their views very difficult to stomach.

Many young people CAN think through their decisions - my dh was 18 when he joined up, as was my db. Both have good salaries and a full, busy and intellectually challenging professional life. Both have got their Masters degrees whilst serving...and lastly, neither were poor with low aspirations; they weighed up what they wanted to do after A levels and went for it. Both were service kids and knew the downsides as well as the up of being in the Forces. I am immensely proud of them both.

I wonder how many servicemen you actually know; or how much you really know about the whole spectrum of what the Armed Forces do. Perhaps you need to do some research before you make a judgement call about them.

piscesmoon · 25/09/2009 07:39

I am very glad that my DCs don't go to your school, Iggi where staff make decisions based on personal prejudices and don't think that young people can think things out for themselves. I was prepared for parents to think that DCs are impressionable blank slates, but I thought that teachers would accord them some reasoning powers of their own.
I agree with scaryteacher.

seeker · 25/09/2009 08:05

I haven't been to a school presentation, no, but I have been to one at a local youth group. The possibility of killing or being killed was not mentioned.

abra1d · 25/09/2009 08:14

Iggi, the forces don't want poorly educated white-working class fodder. It's a highly professionalised service now.

Are you really a teacher? You sound a little partisan.

abra1d · 25/09/2009 08:14

Iggi, the forces don't want poorly educated white-working class fodder. It's a highly professionalised service now.

Are you really a teacher? You sound a little partisan.

hf128219 · 25/09/2009 08:29

Iggi - have you ever thought they don't want to come to your school as your cooking is so bad?

YummyorSlummy · 25/09/2009 08:45

A couple of weeks ago I got to go and visit my dh who is currently on a 4 month detachment in the Falklands. Was an amazing experience, saw some brilliant wildlife etc and an opportunity I probably wouldn't have had if dh wasn't in the forces- thats just one of the perks,Iggi.
Like Scaryteacher, my dh wasn't from a poor or uneducated background- he joined the Raf after getting his A levels,and he's very clever.

abra1d · 25/09/2009 09:01

Whoops, sorry, Iggi, I didn't mean to post twice or be rude about implying you weren't really a teacher--I meant to erase that bit but was distracted by son forgetting something and having to run after him.

jcscot · 25/09/2009 09:38

"Many young people CAN think through their decisions - my dh was 18 when he joined up, as was my db. Both have good salaries and a full, busy and intellectually challenging professional life. Both have got their Masters degrees whilst serving...and lastly, neither were poor with low aspirations; they weighed up what they wanted to do after A levels and went for it. Both were service kids and knew the downsides as well as the up of being in the Forces. I am immensely proud of them both."

Well said.

My husband made the decision to join up at the age of 15. He came from a sink estate with all the typical problems that carries - no encouragement to work hard at school from his parents, and expectation that his role in life was to get whatever job was available and contribute some money to the house. He say his elder brother and sisters trapped in low-paid jobs with few qualifications and decided that he wanted to get out of that place.

So, on paper at least, he was exactly the sort of "cannon fodder" of whom people have been so dismissive of on this thread. If the Forces were so keen on just recruiting anyone, he'd have been in a line regiment as soon as he'd completed basic training.

Instead, they talked to him, gave him aptitude tests and told him that they'd love to have him as a soldier, if that was what he wanted, but that he showed the potential to be an officer. They told him to go back to school, get A-levels, go to Uni and then come back and see them. Hardly a cynical recruitment drive - more of an example of how the Forces invests in talent and potential.

My husband went to Uni and left with a good degree and a postgradute masters and then went on to Sandhurst. He commissioned in 1999 and, ten years later, is now a senior major who'll get his first look at promotion to Lt Col in just over 18 mths.

That's pretty rapid promotion but, more than that, the Army has given him an opportunity he probably wouldn't have had otherwise and he's taken full advantage of it.

He's intelligent, capable, responsible and does a highly specialised job. He's physically fit, outgoing, well-rounded and confident - some of that is innate to him, some was undoubtedly bred into him by the Army.

He measures himself as man by the job he does and he takes great pride in doing that job efficiently and professionally.

So - how's that for a portrait of someone that a lot of people on this thread would have stereotyped as "...ignorant cannon fodder..." who ought to be protected from the big nasty old Armed Forces.

The Army was the making of him.

I, too, think that a lot of people have very strange ideas about how the Forces work and what type of people they attract. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to be worried by the thought of your child joining up - it's our nature to want to protect our children and keep them safe - but it is unreasonable to be so het up about a careers presentation.

isitmyturn · 25/09/2009 10:41

Just come back to this, I haven't been hiding honest .
My opening thread was , I admit, a little flippant and not well thought out.
I should be aware of the fact that others on MN are from very different backgrounds to me. It was never my intention to create an anti/pro forces thread. I assumed , wrongly, that no mother would want her son to join the forces I felt that way from the day he was born.

Anyway my objection really was that there was no information from school that this was taking place and it appears to be an isolated career presentation. There is a careers week in December for year nines and parents are invited in for an open evening on careers advice at that time.

Sorry for any offence caused.

OP posts:
jcscot · 25/09/2009 10:50

No offence taken! This issue rears its head every so often as people, by and large, seem very uncomfortable with the idea of the Forces having any contact with school pupils at all. For those of us who serve and who are married to those who serve, it can seem that people are very blinkered when it comes to the Forces - they appreciate that they are a necessary part of public life but don't like hearing about what they do and assume that careers/information presentations must be glamourising war.

I suppose we then feel the need to try and give a more balanced and nuanced picture of Forces life as we live it, rather than as people imagine it to be.

As I said, you are being perfectly reasonable to be worried abput such a career for your child. I know I've said I would support and encourage my sons to follow their father into the Forces, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't worry about them being in harm's way.

Obviously, my perspective is going to be different - I have close contact with the Army and will, therefore, have a different slant on all it does and can offer.

Perhaps you could contact the school for more information about just how "isolated" and incident it was - maybe there are other presentations scheduled outside of careers week.

mumof2222222222222222boys · 25/09/2009 11:17

This has been an interesting thread, with some excellent posts from jcscot and scarey teacher with whom I agree wholeheartedly.

Not much time to add my tuppenceworth, but being exRN and having an RN DH who is about to go to the middle east, I am very glad that that my son's school seems to be one with an open mind re the forces. In fact his teacher's DH is in Afgan at the moment.

Re the OP I would have no problem with a 13 year old having a career talk from anyone - be it the Army or McDonalds (perish the thought!!) It is all about balance.

Sidge · 25/09/2009 12:54

Iggi999 I find it quite outrageous that your school can be so blatantly selective and restrictive about which careers presentations they allow in school. Have you consulted the parents for their opinions as to who is and isn't allowed to present career options in school?

How do you decide? McDonalds and Armed Forces - no. Abbattoir workers and Asda - yes? I wonder whether your prejudices as a school body are restricting the options open to your students.

I for one want my children exposed to a wide range of possible career choices so that they can make decisions (hopefully with discussion and support from their parents) based on as much awareness as possible.

And as an aside, I was in the RN for 7 years and my DH has been in for 18 and neither of us have killed anybody. There is more to the Armed Services than frontline combat. And more to the Forces than the Army.

scaryteacher · 25/09/2009 13:01

Given the opportunities that the Forces provide; I'd love my son to join up. Like jcscot, I am intimately acquainted with the Forces; I am a Forces brat, so I have been around the RN for 43 years, and married to an RN Officer for 23 years.

There is honestly no agenda. The reason the RN goes into schools is to try change the way that they are perceived and to explain their role more fully - this is a case in point here. There is obviously huge misunderstanding and misinformation about what the RN actually do, and this is what they are trying to rectify.

seeker · 25/09/2009 15:49

The Services do offer opportunities for training and self development - they have to keep all those active young people busy and interested when they aren't needed to perform their core function of fighting and killing people.

It's the cynical hypocrisy I find hard to take - a degree is the modern equivalent of the KLing's Shilling.

seeker · 25/09/2009 15:50

King's Shilling, obviously - I'm not suggesting anyone is recruiting to the Klingon Imperial Guard!

scaryteacher · 25/09/2009 16:03

What cynical hypocrisy? Like any other employer, they look for a return of service after giving funding for a degree. The same could be said of any firm that offers funding - is that hypocrisy or good business practice?

My dh has been in the RN for 30 years Seeker, and afaik has not been involved in any 'hot' war up close; just the cold one.

In fact, the RN were so intent on getting him killed and letting him kill people that they sent him back to Uni whilst en route to the Falklands conflict so he could finish his degree.

The core function of the RN is to keep the sea lanes open Seeker, and they do this very well. I haven't heard of them killing anyone recently though at sea, have you? Alternatively, perhaps you'd like the piracy coming out of Somalia to flourish and spread.

seeker · 25/09/2009 16:16

I have never said that there is no need for the armed services. I think my opinion on that subject is completely irrelevant to this debate.

What I am saying repeatedly is that it is cynical and hypocritical to talk ONLY about the benefits of service life. The careers stuff talks about training and travel and sport. It does not talk about the fact that you nay be called upon to kill people, to die yourself or make decisions that may result in the deaths of innocent civilians. Of course a service career looks attractive to a young person - particularly one from a background with not much to look forward to. I just think they should approach it with open eyes. They are joining a fighting unit, not a youth club.

hf128219 · 25/09/2009 16:21

You don't think a person who signs up is aware of the very possible danger of the job?

jcscot · 25/09/2009 16:32

The realities of Service life are made clear to recruits and the recruits know that they are joining a fighting unit.

Anyone who wanted to join the Forces thinking they were signing up to a youth club wouldn't get through intial interviews.

seeker · 25/09/2009 16:40

I'll leave the thread - obviously people have firmly held opinions, and I won't make any headway. I just leave you with the thought - a careers presentation for nursing which didn't mention that you might come into contact with ill people and just emphasized the brilliant social life available to student nurses would eb considered a bit odd, wouldn't it!

hf128219 · 25/09/2009 16:43

You obviously haven't been to a Forces Presentation recently.

hf128219 · 25/09/2009 16:43

You obviously haven't been to a Forces Presentation recently.

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