Not happy my 13 year 's class old had recruitment presentation from armed forces today

[isitmyturn]

DS1 had a talk by someone from the Navy today. My gut reation is to be horrified with visions of my PFB going off to war.
I had no idea that "careers" advice started so soon and in this form?
He's just into year 8, very academic but worried that he doesn't know what he wants to do career wise. DH and I have tried to tell him not to worry, just work hard for now and he doesn't need to make a career choice until he's older.

To be fair, I'm not sure any presentation would necessarily go into all the downsides of the respective jobs - as I imagine they're trying to attract people into the job rather than putting them off.

But not many jobs have downsides which are actually the fundamental purpose of the job - the army is about killing people. All the other stuff is what you do when you are not at that moment being required to kill people.

My eldest son tried to get into the RAF after university. He wasn't going for a pilot's job but it is very, very difficult to get into. He failed, but was invited to apply again later. Other opportunties turned up in the meantime and he didn't pursue it. Middle son started the application process,at a lower level, and got a date for apptitude tests but he got an apprenticeship before they came up and cancelled. There was a lot to be said for it as a career with good opportunities for advancement. As a mother, I am relieved that they didn't,but DS1 would have had skills that he could have transferred to civilian life and DS2 would have the same skills that he has with his apprenticeship. The modern forces are highly skilled-they are not looking for 'cannon fodder'.
I have discussed it with young people who have chosen it as a career and they have all struck me as being remarkably mature, and to have thought it out. The one that I call to mind was an 18 yr old girl who was going to join the army. I think you can discuss it with them, in a rational way, but if it is what they want to do it is very unfair to foist your own views.
Maybe it is just because I have lived in military areas and met lovely forces people, but I would support them if they made that choice. Having met a young man, recently back from Afganistan (disturbed enough to speak to me as a stranger in a shopping centre cafe about his experiences)I have to say that I am pleased that they haven't gone down that route.
I don't usually disagree Seeker! However I think that if you bring up young people to make their own choices you have to follow it to the logical conclusion and give them the freedom to do it. You can give your reasons but it isn't fair to play the emotional blackmail card, or to resent a careers talk at school.

sorry-opportunities.
I have to say that neither DS would have been going into a role where they were going to directly kill anyone-neither was the young man I spoke to in the shopping centre.

Seeker, I can see your point, and I accept it, but I do disagree with it.

There are many parts of the army that aren't fundamentally about killing, such as intelligence, logistics etc. I know they are kind of a means to an end, but it's not as if forces personnel are out there every day shooting people.

But also, I do agree with piscesmoon, it's never going to be up to a parent to make a career decision for their child. It's obviously fine to talk to them about the downsides as well as the up, but it will be their decision.

I guess if you fundamentally disagree with maintaining an army, then I can accept your point more (and I don't know if this is your position), but I'm just pointing out that there are lots of opportunities for people in the forces, and it is a legitimate and respected career for thousands of people, the vast majority of whom will never have to kill another person, and will not be injured or killed themselves.

I agree that the Armed Forces should be allowed into schools (and colleges/universities) to inform people about the job opportunities but also to inform people of what role the Forces play in our society.

I know it must be hard to imagine your child in such a job but it can be an excellent and fulfilling career.

My husband came from just such a deprived area as seeker talks about. He turfed up at a recruitment office at the age of 15, fully intending to join up as a soldier and was persuaded to go to college, get his A-levels and then onto Uni. He did just that and is educated to postgradute degeree level.

Then, and only then, did he join the Army. He's an officer and he loves his job. He's been promoted rapidly and has fully enjoyed all the challenges and opportunities that have come his way. Right now, he's out in Afghanistan and - difficulties of the job aside - he's enjoyed it.

Based on his experience, I would encourage both my sons to go into the Forces - they could do far worse in life than join an orginaisation where the individual is taught and encouraged to put others before themselves, where good old-fashioned values like honour and duty and service still have currency and where there is a strong sense of community and support.

I wouldn't be to concerned about the presentation - if the Forces interest your child, they will explore and abandon or pursue that career as they choose. There's no brainwashing or cult-like conditioning and your shild might just learn something about how the Forces fit into our society.

Funny jscot my DH's story is similar. He wanted to join as a soldier, but they persuaded him to do A Levels, and he actually went to an Army 6th Form.

The army then sponsored him through Bristol Uni and he then went to Sandhurst and became an officer.

He left after a few years, but loved his job and would highly recommend it as a career. In fact, I often think he regrets leaving and I would support him going back in in a heartbeat, even though when he was out in Iraq it was the most stressful and scary period of my life.

A well balanced post jcscot.
I recently went to my Uncle's funeral (he was elderly and had long been retired). He joined the navy at 17yrs when job opportunities were thin on the ground. He joined at the bottom as a stoker and quickly rose through the ranks to Lieutenant Commander. He travelled the world and would never have gained the same skills,confidence and experiences in his small town. His mother didn't want him to join-he did it and told her afterwards.
I agree with jcscot-people are talking as if the Forces giving a career talk is a brainwashing exercise and that young people don't have brains of their own! There are too many parents who want to control not only what their DCs do, but what they think.

Not only does the army differ from other employers in the respects mentioned above by seeker; it is also unlike other jobs in that ou can't just give a months notice to quit, or walk out. In any other job, I can quit if I decide my employer is up to something I don't agree with: a soldier has got to carry on fighting for even what he perceives to be an unjust war, until his term is up. Big difference.

With this in mind, I have a big problem with the fact that the British army is just about the only western army that recruits children under 18. I know they do not see active service while under age, but they are still making a massive commitment at a very young age. Britain has frequently been criticised for this. I would have much more respect for the recruitment office if they recruited adults.

They do recruit adults too cory. They do at least treat young people like adults, unlike a lot of people these days. You get posts on mumsnet where people wouldn't let a 16 yr old babysit, even with a direct line to a mobile, because they couldn't cope!

Anyone who leaves the Army (i'm not sure about the Navy and RAF has to give six month's notice. The only time they are not allowed to put in their notice is if they've already been informed that they are being deployed on operations.

Certain trades/skills carry a longer minimum length of service because of the cost of training someone to do that job.

The Forces, believe me, do not wish to keep hold of people who do not want to do the job.

Nooka, you just reminded me of when we had the army presentation at my school. I remember the recruiter describing all the exciting options and the marvellous opportunities. He then reeled off a list of positions, with "women need not apply" at the end of most. I put up my hand and pointed out that essentially all women were allowed to do were be typists and caterers according to his list. He looked a bit annoyed at me, told me off and the entire female student contingent as a person stood up and walked out.

They breed them stroppy where I caome from.

The young man that was disturbed by his Afganistan experience was leaving the army in a couple of months and had a training course and change of career lined up. I can't see that the army would have sent him back against his will-he would have been a danger to his fellow soldiers. (I think some people are set in a WW1 mindset.)

The Forces have moved on slug and the recruiter would have been able to give you a whole list of jobs these days.

I know they recruit adults too, that's hardly the point. The point is that children are allowed to make a massive decision about something that will affect their life in years to come. That is rather different from allowing a youngster to baby-sit for an evening. If you know my usual posting record, you will know that I usually speak out very strongly against any attempt to baby children. But this is not the norm even in countries where there is far less babying of children than in the UK, it is an area where Britain stands out in what seems to me a very dubious way and it has attracted a lot of international criticism. I do no think that 16yos should be treated like babies. But I do not think they should be treated like adults either.

I can't see the problem. Career advice should be given from the age of 13 and joining the armed forces is a valid career option.

My middle DS left school at 16yrs (he was actually 15yr because of his late birthday). He had to make sensible decisions for his future. He had to be treated like an adult-he is the one who knows what suits him-I only know what suits me and what I think suits him. Many a DC gets forced into a sensible career choice by the parent and then is very unhappy and throws it all over in mid life and does what they wanted to do in the first place. He wanted an apprenticeship and a trade-the Forces were a very sensible route to take. He didn't in the end-even if he had gone further down the recruitment line he might have decided it wasn't for him.
Even if a DC is staying on at school to do A'levels they need to be making adult decisions about which ones.
My Uncle joined the Navy without telling his mother-he was the one that was right and his future was much brighter than the narrow, small town, safe one his mother had mapped out.
The 18 yr old girl that I spoke to with her heart set on an army career was a lovely mature girl, any mother would have been proud of her. She had thought it out.
There are too many parents who only allow their DC freedom of choice if they fall in line with the parent. I didn't want my DSs to join the Forces but I would have given my full support if they had.
The army isn't giving an impressionable 16yr old a gun and ordering them 'over the top' to shoot the enemy!

if a 16 year old can make a decision to smoke or create babies then why the hell not join the army? my dad who is still in the army joined as a boy soldier at 16 with no education and is now a Major. i think each to their own.

People have a very nimby approach to the forces. If our country were ever under threat (and it's worth bearing in mind that without an army that could well happen), people would be wanting the forces to protect them, just as long as it isn't their own bfp doing it ey? it's ok for someone else to die for their country - just not your child.

Personally i think that recruiting in areas of vast unemployment is a fantastic idea. in fact I would go so far as to say that the army should have a greater involvement in young offenders institutions and with troubled teens. My cousin was just such a troubled teen, in trouble at school, then got into trouble and did time for gbh. When he came out he joined the army and has completely turned his life around.

I don't get the negative attitude towards the forces in this country - I really don't. People should be proud that there are soldiers out there who want to join the army, proud that there are people out there who are prepared to put others before themselves. When I was in the US recently I went to see a show at seaworld, and before it started, they asked that members of the armed forces stand, not just the US armed forces, but the UK armed forces and all other allies, and the crowd applauded them. They have pride not only in their own forces, but have recognission for others too. And yet we cannot see fit to even recognize the work of our own soldiers. shocking.

I went to a 'Forces wedding' in the summer.There was a guard of honour outside the church -all in uniform-all lovely young men. At my uncle's funeral I spoke to his grandson-a dog handler in RAF; one of DS1's friends joined the army as a dentist. (that is his job in the army). There is a whole wealth of opportunities and I think that while people have their mind set on 'children' having guns and shooting people it is a very good idea for the Forces to give career talks at school and give the whole picture.
I think that any of the young people that I have met recently would have laughed at the idea that they were brainwashed-to me they seem more independently minded than average.
I don't think we do our 16yr olds any good by infantilising them and assuming that they can't make decisions about their own futures-based on facts and relevant information.

God, what a military sycophantic thread.

I would be horrified if a school my ds went to did this without my consent - unless they followed it by a very vivid documentary every case of abuse perpetrated by armed forces the world over.

Quite happy for them to do the same after a banking presentation, by the way.

13 is a very vulnerable age and targetting children at that age seems predatory to me.

I take it that you would have been quite happy for Hitler to have taken over the country ib, and would have stood back while he killed all Jews, homosexuals and gypsies?

There does seem to be a prevailing view that children are empty vessels who will take what people say as gospel, without a thought for themselves-and that they have to be programmed by mum.

I find it amazing that people are happy for their children to go off to university at eighteen, without supervision, where drinking and drugs are the norm, yet are not happy for them to potentially go into a career where they will receive plenty of training and guidance and will come out with a decent job at the end of it.

And at thirteen children are more likely to be starting binge drinking and having sex than seriously contemplating joining the army.

Wannabe's 10.24 post says it all IMO. I totally agree.

ib - would you feel better if there were no armed forces then?

I don't think children are going to be brainwashed into the army - I am aware that it is not a cult.

My problem is with the glossing over the real purpose of an army. It is not a benevolent institution set up with the sole purpose of training young people for trades, or putting them through university or allowing them to see the world or go water-skiing. It is a complex machine for killing people. If people join up with their eyes wide open, then it is, of course their choice. But many don't. And recruitment drives targetted at areas of high unemployment and deprivation are cynical in the extreme.