I've just had a phone call from the mum of one of dd's friends saying that dd is bullying her daughter.

[seeker]

They are both in Year 8 at different schools. They go on the bus together, and apparently, dd has been ignoring the other girl, turning her back on her, deliberately leaving her out of conversations, generally excluding her until this other girl doesn't want to go to school and is in tears every night.

I am completely gobsmacked by this - I just didn't think my dd would behave like this - but I know that's what all bully's mothers say, so I'm ignoring my mother tiger feelings.

I'm not sure how to take it forward - I need to talk to my dd, I know, but do you think it would be a good idea to have a "meeting' with dd, the other girl, her mother and me? And I'm meeting dd and another friend for a pizza tonight - the friend goes on the bus too - should I talk about it with both of them or wait to talk to dd alone? Help!

I am not sure seeker. I have friends who complain that their children are being bullied because they are not invited to every single birthday party and it makes them cry, (primary school though). My own DCs are not invited to All parties but they do not care and do not feel ignored as such but other children take it very seriously and loose appetite and sleep over it I am told.

When I said you should ask for more info It is not to say she certainly is NOT a bully (also I still think it is too strong a word for the situation you discribe IMO)but in the same time, you should not assume she IS because someone says so, talk to her teachers and even the bus driver to have a clearer pictureof how she behaves when not in the family environement( you do not have to decribe this event in particular, just as a general question "how do you think DD is doing in the friendship department, general behaviour in school... do they have any concerns...) talk to your Dd to see if she might not have realised that her behaviour could be hurtful to someone, talk to her friends or their parents to see if they had at any points thought that your DD could be a bully...

Am i the only one thinking at yr 8 this is a matter for the girls to sort out for themselves?

Different if there was actual malicious bullying going on ,but this just sounds like a typical girl bitch fest imo.

I am inclined to agree ggirl - that's why I think there must be be something serious going on for the other mother to actually ring me up about it.

or she could be one of those mums who gets too involved in her teens lives
I have come across some horrors

The trouble with this situation is that it may not actually constitute bullying, but for you to say so at this point could look like you are in denial. If your daughter is singling this girl out for humiliation, taunting her or actually physically hurting her as a form of entertainment then obviously it is bullying. If she is encouraging others to ostracise her then it is bullying. If it is her decision to move on from the friendship for what ever reason, that is not bullying. Sometimes kids just decide they are bored or irritated by someone and don't wish to keep company with them anymore. Girls are notorious for ganging together to weed out the weaker one of the group. Obviously it's really upsetting for the other girl and how she deals with it will depend on how sensitive or self-confident she is, and whether or not she has many other friends to distract her. Being ostracised is horrible but unfortunately you cannot make everyone 'just be friends' if your daughter really doesn't want her around. Adults would not dream of spending their social time with people they find dull or annoying and yet we encourage our kids to do it all the time for the sake of an easy life!
It sounds as though your daughter has 'grown out of' this old friend since being at a new school, and unfortunately this other girl is possibly being a bit clingy? It's a very common situation. They can't always articulate why they are rejecting a former friend any more than an adult can articulate why they have fallen out of love with a partner. Awkward and upsetting but normal. The thing is when it's your child who is feeling hurt and alone it's all to easy to use the B word. Maybe your daughter just needs to learn to be a bit more sensitive to this girls feelings and try to extricate herself more subtly and slowly from the friendship in a way that is less hurtful.

good post tiggy,totally agree
yr 8 is when a lot of friendship groups change

But even if friendship groups change - and they do and have - this girl has never been in dd's "inner circle" and I would expect them to be at least civil to each other on a 30 minute bus ride. I wouldn't expect dd to socialize with anyone she doesn't much care for, but basic politeness and friendliness on the bus is a given, surely?

I think you are being very even minded here, seeker. I think a lot hinges on how well you know the friend and her mother - are they calm, nice, reasonable people?

It all seems a bit odd, as the girls go to different schools. I agree the ignoring could have been the last straw.

You certainly need to talk to your daughter to get her side of this.

Also, work out what she should do on the bus to stop this girl accusing her of bullying - (even if the accusation is far fetched).

Perhaps your dd just needs to sit well away from this girl ( on the upper deck if she is on the lower deck for instance) so she can't be accused of ignoring her. She will be sitting too far away to be deliberatly doing this - and if she says a quick hello that's all she'd need to do.

well you need to find out your dd's reasons why..if she'll tell you
then instill the values of politeness and how to treat others as you've said

don't think you need to get togethr with the other mum

Well said tigermoth. And yes seeker, I agree it costs nothing to just be polite and civil to be people you don't much care for. There's no excuse for being rude and nasty. That's why it's so important that you talk to her to find out exactly what she's been doing. Even then though it will be hard to know who to really believe. (as anyone who witnessed the heartbreaking group rejection of a dear little boy for apparently 'threatening' one of his housemates with a dinner knife in 'Boys and Girls Alone' this week! The wronged boy was fantasising wildly about happened but he truly believed his own version and the others all got caught up in the drama of it all.A eal eye opener. Children don't always mean to lie, they sometimes just have an unusual slant on the truth!!!) Is it possible that your DD is showing off a bit to impress older or cooler children and she sees this girl as a bit of an embarrassing hanger-on? Is she generally a very dominant and scathing personality? Children like that need to be encouraged to tone down their hard edges a little for the sake of other more delicate souls.

Seeker well done on taking this seriously, my sister had this type of bullying happen to her for about a year it total destroyed her confidence and she ended up leaving school early because of it.
People who dont think it bullying how would you feel if everyday a girl you had previously been on good terms with suddenly start ignoring you, giggle and give you sly looks, looking you up and down, gossip about you, making sure no one else speaks to you becuase your not part of the in group. It can totally destroy a girls confidence at such a vunerable age.

Not to say seekers daughter as done any of those things, her version could be very different.

You're not going to believe this, but when I went to collect ds from school, his teacher said he had completely lost it with his best friend at lunch time and had to be hauled off him and taken to the heat teacher's office to cool down. He is tearful and mortified and apologetic and making his friend a sorry card as we speak - but if ever I am smug about my children ever again, please will someone shoot me!

Anyone would think it was Friday 13th or something!

Seeker - just read this with interest. Same thing happened to me yesterday. Had a phone call from a mum saying my ds in Y6 has been ignoring one of his friends and this boy is crying when he gets home, and please could I 'sort it out'.

Was gobsmacked as teachers say similar thing to what your daughter's teachers said.

Told the mum I would speak to ds and let her know his side of it...

Not sure how to handle iot so this thread is v helpful.

Hope it all gets resolved and things calm down over half term!!

I'm deliberately not reading any posts on this before I answer (nc prepares for flaming )......Ive had lots shitloads of experience with bullies and what you do have to look t clearly is the line between general playground nastiness which we all have to suffer in all areas of life cos we dont live in a 'happy bubble'and what general bullying is - tbh the situation you describe isnt imvho bullying - its perhaps being a little unpleasant and as a mum its not how you would encourge your dc to behave but you nor i know the full situation.

I would speak to your dd alone and ask in generl how the friendship is going then dependant upon her response explain what the other mum has told you give her chance to explain herself and take into account her valid feelings then its upto her shes almost a teen and she needs to either a/ speak with her friend and work things through or b /agree she has outgrown this friendship and move along not by being nasty to this other girl but by generating space between them.

Girls are very dramatic and i think this coud well boil down to your dd having found her feet and settled into secondary school before the other girl there is a huge range of differences of maturity of girls around 12 -13 and you know your dd and her capabilities and i strongly suspect that you like others wouldnt entertin a dd who was becoming a bully.

Hope this is all soon resolved.

(now gonna read other peoples answers and hope im not too out of synch .....)

Actually NC you are almost pot on with my post!

Sleepyeyes, I know it's very upsetting but I am adamant that it isn't necessarily bullying. Clearly Seeker needs to get more facts. What you say happened to your sister also happened to my own 13 year old son a few months back. He went from being an extremely popular boy, definitely one of the 'in-crowd' to being ostracised by a whole big group of his mates, some of whom were winding him up, relentlessly teasing him and trying to goad him into a fight, for no real reason we could get to the bottom of. There was a vey unpleasant atmosphere for about a month, and I couldn't actually get him to go to school at all for a week - he just laid in bed crying his heart out, completely confused by it all. I got my knickers in a twist about it and went to the school, (who were fabulous I must say)and the two ringleaders were hauled over the coals, and the nastiness stopped. Lo and behold, boys being boys and generally not holding grudges the way girls do, a few months later they are all best friends again! Absolutely infuriating.

All I'm saying is there is a fine line between being excluded from things because people don't like you much (and let's be honest we all do it in one form or another - we just have the good sense to be discreet about it) and actually seeking someone out for spiteful treatment to get your power kicks. Not wanting to include someone in your social group is heartbreaking for the child involved but it is not in itself bullying. Of course, systematic pointing, sniggering, intimidating, belittling and whispering IS bullying. But it's important to distinguish the two.

Ok, next installment. I was sitting having supper with dd and her friend, who also goes on the bus, and mentioned that I had been talking to the other girl's mum and she said that she was very unhappy on the bus and did they know anything about it. Dd and friend said yes they did, and this girl was always saying that she was being left out and it was just that if there are three conversations going on you can't include everyone in all of them. I asked them straight out if either of them had ever deliberately left this girl out and they both said no. And I'm pretty sure I believe them. But what next?

Maybe a quiet word to DD along the lines of "X is clearly quite unhappy at the moment, it would be kind of you to make a special effort to include her in your next conversation. Sometimes people can be shy and might feel that they are being left out becuase they aren't confident enough to jump into a conversation even though you aren't deliberately excluding her"?

I would ask her if the girl is ever included in their conversation?
If the asnwer is seldom or never then maybe point out how this makes the girl feel even if it's not intentional.
At the same time your daughter shouldn't feel she HAS to be friends with this girl as long a she is polite and friendly.
I would call the other mother and tell her your daughters side and ask if maybe her daughter is finding the social side of school difficult?
Some kids find the jump to senior primary/beginning high school, it's possible the girl generally having trouble fitting in and mixing, moving on and making other friends.
This is ultimatly may be a bigger problem than just the school bus and therefore is the girl and her mother issue to deal with, not you and your daughter.

Some kids find the jump HARD,is what I measnt to say.

it might be a relative thing too - so a bit of ignoring of a 'clingon' to your daughter, might be all out OMG they hate me - for the other girl - its about perception.

i would like to commend you on your even handedness and think that you will handle it all beautifully

Sleepyeyes is right Seeker. It sounds like your dd has outgrown the friendship to some extent. I can just picture it, girl unhappy and moaning she's left out, and your dd is probably slightly annoyed by her, so leaves her out without even meaning to. I would just remind dd to be kind to her but ultimately I don't think it's yours or dd's problem.
Are there no girls from her school on the bus? Perhaps her mother should engineer some journeys where she travels with someone she's actually at school with.
Shame, but part of growing up imo.

I sit next to somebody at work whose dd calls her 2 times every day. She is very protective over her, but also very outspoken about everybody else. this means that things that you or I might let go in a day she will be in there and meddling. Her dd only has to mention something and she jumps on it and wants to make something out of it when it is usually just girls being girls. My dd came home tonight and burst into tears because she felt she had been left out of her friends, but I just told her that it is the end of term and that everything seems worse when you are tired and that she will be ok. Which quite frankly she was once she had had a cry and a hug.

I had something VERY similar a few months ago seeker- and it is a real tricky one. FWIW I just did a lot of talking with her, about other people's feelings etc (and she is normally VERY sensitive to others, a real people-pleaser!), and used tv situations like Mean Girls, America's Next Top Model etc etc to ask her how certain situations might make people feel etc.

I topped it up with a bit of "Do you really want any sniff of you ever being less than pleasent and polite to go on your school record permanently for every college you apply to to read?" yada yada, and said that I wanted to hear things had really improved from the girl's mother, quicksmart...Oh, and if any of her mates were being mean, she needed to tell them they were getting her into trouble. I also confiscated the mobile and banned MSN for a while, to cut down any bitching opportunities.

Touch wood, things are a LOT better...

We helped our year seven girls write contracts last term. They all agreed that leaving someone out could be hurtful, pointedly looking at someone and then giggling might be hurtful, turning their back and then having a shouty conversation when someone tried to talk to them might be hurtful too.

They agreed that if they noticed anyone in the group doing this then they would be able to say so without being ostracised. What had been happening was a few noisy rambunctious types were overwhelming the others who knew better really. This left a few quieter types isolated, they would hold it together until hometime and then lose it to their mums.

It's more difficult as this other girl goes to a different school but it sounds like your daughter has a good head on her shoulders. If she has a strong streak of empathy, maybe she can take the lead in making sure no-one starts or ends the day feeling left out on the bus. There's nothing like a challenge.