Yearly warning about taking A-level maths with a 6 at GCSE

[noblegiraffe]

GCSE results day and therefore A-level sign-up day.

So with that in mind I just thought I'd post the table of conversions from GCSE to A-level results for maths to show that there is a strong correlation. This is because A-level Maths basically starts with a quick review of grade 8/9 GCSE algebra content and then gets more difficult. Students starting with a 7 will have to work very hard to keep up, students with a 6 often flounder.

There are sixth forms and colleges that will accept students with a 6 onto A-level maths, but from many years of experience, this is not a good experience for the student. Many will drop out and switch courses early on (and therefore not appear in the results table I've posted), but some will struggle on for 2 years and then come out with a grade that really doesn't help them with university applications.

If you take A-level maths with a 6, even if you manage to complete the course (and a lot won't), about three quarters will get a D or below, with E the most common grade.

If your child is considering maths with a grade 7 but will be applying for extremely competitive uni courses, consider whether they actually need it as A*s and As from a 7 are not likely. Obviously, anything is possible, check how far they were off an 8, ask their teacher for advice, but please don't assume that an (old) A at GCSE translates to an A at A-level.

This data is from 2019, there's more recent data but not in as clear a format, and the message is basically the same.

If your child is keen to do maths, but gets a 6, please consider Core Maths instead, which is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and provides supportive maths content for A-level sciences and social sciences (e.g. psychology, geography).

If your child is going to do A-level maths (particularly if they are on a 7 but also 8/9), check that they have done summer bridging work so they hit the ground running in September.

If they haven't been set any bridging work - don't assume that's ok! There are some resources here to help https://alevelmathsrevision.com/bridging-the-gap/

Psychology should be great … we’re the second most popular A level…. That speaks for itself I think!

This is nothing new, 40+ years ago, anyone with a grade c gce maths, then the lowest actual pass, would really struggle with A level

Edexcel books. I have got Kindle versions as well now. The resources are so much better these days. Geogebra for graphs. As a person with limited drawing ability, I truly appreciate Geogebra.

@jobnotsure your post kind of supports our argument here – students would do better at your subject if they had higher grades in certain GCSEs.

I think the point is really that noble finds each year that parents wish they had known that a 6 at GCSE is likely to lead to a lower grade at A level. If a student is OK with that and still wants to take maths then I guess that's fair enough. It's not IMHO in a YP's interests tho to encourage them to take a qualification where they are pretty likely to achieve a very low grade. It's going to be a struggle through two tough years and rather demoralising I suspect.

I did Psychology many years ago! Loved it!

Ok, so we've got History and Psychology.

Any other suggestions for good A-Level subjects for those with 6/7 GCSE grades?

@jobnotsure
Thing is though that maths isn't a subject that you can just work harder in and get there. Working hard will get you some way further, but you can have a pupil who works their socks off but will never understand certain concepts.
And if you don't understand the concept then it's very difficult to use it to problem solve.
Equally well you can have a pupil who doesn't need anything including degree level explaining after the initial look because it's just obvious in their eyes.

So it's more than filling in a missing gap.
Some maths can be learnt by rote, but not all. And when it comes to problem solving you don't have a chance of starting if you don't understand the background.

I'm one who had a ds who did A-level from a mid 7. He got an A.
BUT:
He did no work for GCSE except what was in class so had underperformed
He had a certain amount of knowledge missing due to illness
He was working at a E/possibly low D level until mocks when his sister started tutoring him.
He put in more work into maths over those three months than I think he put into the whole rest of school, including having several sessions with dd each week.
It did effect the grades in the other subjects, fairly sure of that. I think both his other subjects dropped a grade due to that.

I wouldn't recommend it if you have a child who has worked hard for that 7, and needs three good grades.

I don’t see people saying you can’t do biology, chemistry or physics without a 7 or an 8 in science.
I do. And also saying don't do Physics without at least a 7 in maths too. The dc's comprehensive said on maths and sciences that they recommended a 7 or above for all of them. The local 6th form will only take below 7s for those subjects if there is space in the class - and they will encourage them to look at other subjects.

But actually it's not a ridiculous concept that you need to be a certain level to move onto the next level, and there are 3 grades above a 6.
I mean in our tennis club growing up, the juniors had to be a certain level on the ladder before they could be considered for senior teams, and another level again before they could apply for the A teams.
That wasn't about being mean (although some parents definitely thought so), it was about acknowledging that playing above your level is pretty miserable for you and you're likely to be playing as hard as you can and hardly getting any points. And also if you were playing in the A team, then you couldn't play for the lower teams where you'd get matches that you could well win.

My warning is don't do English literature either unless you aced your gcse. Signed, ex English lit pupil

I think much depends on the teacher. I failed A level chemistry but recently after 15 years out of education I achieved a grade of 100% on my university level biochemistry module. My highest grade ever. All because of my wonderful lecturer who made the subject come alive!

I think a student gaining 7s at GCSE can take any subject they like (possibly not FM). No one here has said otherwise I don't think.

I would suggest if they got grade 6s at GCSE, more topic-based subjects might suit better: sociology, RE, phil and ethics, history, geography, PE, English lit or lang (tho lang is very different from GCSE), politics, psychology, environmental science, art, drama, DT (various), media, business. It very much depends though on the student and how hard they worked for their GCSE grades. I think it should be addressed on an individual basis.

I'm going to add to this- only do maths if your kid really loves it.

Mine got an 8 at GCSE with absolutely no effort - A level requires effort- he got a D with no effort - what a waste.

That’s brilliant to hear dustabsorber

An excellent teacher is priceless but unfortunately often rare.

But the point is picking A levels should be about doing subjects you love and enjoy. Telling a young person you’re not good enough with a B is crap in my opinion. There is a big danger that a lot of labelling and self fulfilling prophecy happens when teachers start telling pupils this also

As I said in my first post appreciate this is well intentioned but it sucks and speaks volumes about the state of the system. I’m sure some people will find this helpful.

You’re not wrong about students with 7/8s being out off A-Level Maths by the “A* or bust” crowd. My eldest had a solid 8 in GCSE maths and spent his whole maths A-level being told he wasn’t bright enough by one of the maths teachers, who only wanted the kids who got 9s and therefore also qualified for further maths.

We have quite a weird attitude to maths in this country. The same school I’ve described refuses to offer Core Maths because it’s not prestigious enough, and therefore leaves everyone with a 6 or 7 in GCSE maths with no option to keep up their numeracy at school. Be the best or just give up completely seems to be the mantra.

Oh no that’s so sad.. that teacher sounds awful and needs some training on labelling and self fulfilling prophecy in the classroom.

This is fascinating, and I would second the warnings about how hard they need to work at A-level for Maths.

My youngest dc got a 9 at GCSE and went on to do Maths, Further Maths and Physics at A level. Her sixth form wanted 8 at GCSE for Maths A-level, and 9 for FM.

DC is not in fact a natural mathematician despite the 9 at GCSE, and she worked like stink for A-level - it's three years since she finished A-levels and we are still using her scribbled sheets of maths practice to light the woodburner. Endless endless scrawled pages of problems - I was buying pads of file paper on repeat. She got her A*s in the end, but in her first term of a Physics degree decided that she'd reached Peak Maths and changed course.

A level maths really is brutally hard work, even if they start with a high GCSE grade.

So do you think people should be allowed to take your psych A level course with a 3 in science? Presumably not? or at least they should be advised that they might find it a big challenge?

I have said this on here before but it's a true tale: in DS2's year 12 maths class there was a student who had got a 6 at GCSE. They had an early assessment which was challenging (Ds scored like 45/90) – this student scored 0. They left the room in tears. I don't personally think that was a positive experience for them. (I don't know if they continued with A level maths before anyone asks).

ETA: I don't think anyone is saying anyone should be told they are not good enough. More that "you might find this a real challenge and you may get a better grade in a different subject". Some YP would like to know this – if they are planning a degree not in a maths-related subject, they may prefer to be on track for a B in history rather than a D in maths. For example.

Really interesting, thanks for posting. I remember my old Maths teacher gently suggesting there might be subjects I’d do better at than Maths, I got a B when there were only As above that (no A stars yet.)

Now you’re being a bit flippant here, I wouldn’t want a student without a standard pass in science doing psychology but that’s not the same thing is it..

And actually I have taught adults A level psychology intensive in the evenings and some them did not have science O level or GSCE and they did very well.

Personally I think people should follow their heart and ignore the stats. It might look good for the school to engineer results by forcing pupils into foundation papers and limiting who can take what A-Levels. It’s rarely good for the student.

Not every degree course requires an A in your maths A-Level. Many pupils can still get onto a course they want with a lower grade.

Also I think some A-Level maths teachers are rubbish. That was my experience. I got an A at GCSE but was in a pretty mixed ability group for A-Level. I saw first hand how a couple of the teachers were incapable of explaining tough concepts to the less academically able. The class did much better in the modules taught by another teacher who had the patience, time and capability to adapt to different learning styles.

My son got a grade 5. Sixth form wouldn't accept him so he took 3 A Levels that they would accept and taught himself A level maths from a book. Just got a Grade C! I so want to go back and shove the result in their face!!

I'm making the point that there needs to be a level of prior achievement to take an A level. You object to the level being 7 in maths rather than 6. But why not 5 – that's a pass? or 4 – also a pass? the reason is because experience with the spec has shown that for a student to have a positive experience, a certain level of attainment and knowledge is needed. The level may be and in fact IMO is different for different subjects. You teach people who got a 5 but would prefer a 6; noble teaches those who get a 6 but would prefer a 7. I no longer teach in school so I can be picky about whom I tutor haha. But I would certainly not be keen to take a student with a 6 at GCSE for German or French A level unless I knew there were very good reasons why they got a 6. Reasons that would not affect their A level study (such as illness in May of year 11).

My school dept once took a very keen student to do A level German with a C after passionate pleading. This turned out to be a terrible idea. Luckily everyone inc the student agreed thia after about two weeks.

@Blueburner not all will need an A at A level; but many will need higher than a D/E/U – which are the most likely outcomes from a grade 6 GCSE (almost 75%v based on the table above).

Wow, well done him!

It is so confusing for us oldies. I did O levels. The grades were 1 - 6 pass and 7 - 9 fail. We wanted 1s or 2s for our A level choices, or maybe a 3. I got a 4 in Latin and so few wanted to do Latin A level, the Latin teacher said a 4 would do if I wanted to do Latin.
Now the grades are turned upside down and what's wanted is an 8 or 9 with 7 being a maybe.

Why does it suck? It makes perfect sense that if you only know 50% of the GCSE curriculum (to get a 6) then you won't be successful at A level.

Psychology is a subject with a different nature. Few students study it at GCSE and the science content is built upon, but that isn't the whole psychology A level curriculum. You start learning quite a lot of psychology from scratch, relying on little existing knowledge. Wheras maths is cumulative and builds heavily on prior knowledge, and there's too many gaps to fill.