Daughter being excluded from prom

[user1471497170]

My daughter is year 11 and sits GCSEs next month. She has struggled throughout the whole of secondary school with friendships, MH/school anxiety, behaviour and approximately a year ago almost got sent to pru. She has never settled in school. However she has made significant improvement, not on any behaviour plan, is revising hard and should pass GCSEs and do her chosen subjects in college.

She has autism, anxiety and some physical health issues that are likely linked. Getting her into school is a struggle as she feels unhappy there but we make the effort and her attendance is good.

Although much improved her behaviour score is not high enough to meet the 90% prom threshold (reminders, uniform points and gokng to toilet when not permitted). She was informally told this week the final decision is that she will be excluded from prom.

Now all the girls have their tickets and she is beside herself. They are all making plans and talking about dresses and she now feels unable to continue going to school due to feeling so distressed about this. She is worried how she will cope with the sense of exclusion having to keep hearing about prom in school and assemblies

She's now at home. I have written to the school and submitted 2 complaints over the last 2 months however I have not received a satisfactory response. There has been no communication to me from the school about their decision or how they will support those excluded. Please can someone advise how I can escalate this further and if possible externally.

Educaton means prom?

Oh for god sake - the discussion has moved on to schools not meeting needs long before prom

@Leftrightmiddle you have just decided that it’s due to forgetting items. OP said ‘reminders’. On a behaviour chart that’s more likely to be reminders abput repeated poor behaviour. Lots of posters have said this and asked the OP to clarify. She hasn’t, so I’m happy to conclude it’s not forgetting her pen. It’s also not going to the toilet. It’s going out of the classroom without permission and likely wandering about which as has been pointed out repeatedly would be a safeguarding issue at an event in a public place. Staff have to know where she is without constant checking.

the discussion has moved on to schools not meeting needs long before prom @Leftrightmiddle

Do you mean school in general, or the specific school that OP’s daughter attends?
I’ve read through all of OP’s posts carefully, and she hasn’t complained about anything regarding the school other than the prom exclusion.

Only, I'm afraid, because you keep pushing for it to be so. As I've pointed out a few times, the OP has not asked for any changes to how behavioural consequences have been applied to this child before this moment, or, if she has, she's oddly chosen not to share them.

I'm afraid, you're very much making this thread about you and your situation. Perhaps it might be better to start another?

So it's not about any positive benefit for that child in that relationship. Well that's honest.
I can only reiterate- kids should not be socially excluded as a sanction. The ones who that happens to are the ones who need the inclusion most. You can quite me if you need to quote anyone.
There are plenty of ways of acknowledging good behaviour without straying into cruelty.
What you have described is schools deciding to utilise the prom inappropriately.

It's your opinion @Warmlight1 that it's inappropriate. And I disagree it's "social exclusion".

Schools do all of these things which take kids away from social situations as behavioural punishments:

• Isolation within school time.
• Removal of invitation to school trips.
• Detention at lunchtime or after school meaning less time with friends.

Would you remove all of these as consequences? I see prom as discretionary which others have too i.e. it's a positive consequence given only to children with the behaviours they have wanted to encourage. It's not part of the school day and specifically for prom there will be nothing the school can do after that point to sanction the child as they will have left the school. So they would want to be sure that time spent, staffed by employees giving up their time is enjoyable for all.

Instead the op is keeping their child at home for reasons only themselves know. Presumably because of this debacle. Which is presumably increasing social isolation. Odd.

So what negative consequences would you sanction? And which positive consequences are ok to only give to children who behave well?

No @Warmlight1. It’s the school(s) deciding to offer an extra which will be staffed completely free by teachers and other school employees and deciding that they will do this as a reward for students who meet certain criteria. That isn’t inappropriate. It’s completely reasonable - especially when the criteria are open and transparent and well known by the student body.

kids should not be socially excluded as a sanction. @Warmlight1

Just to clarify: when you say “kids”, do you mean all kids, including those who are bullies, criminally responsible, a threat to others, a major disruption to the school, and so on?

And teachers complaining about children in their classes or parents complaining about their child education being disrupted by SEN pupils, people complaining about SEN kids costing too much money is not pushing their own situation?

🤔

Interestingly I really didn't want to bring personal examples into the thread but people didn't seem to think beyond their own narrow viewpoint. People also actually stated that x y z wouldn't happen so yes I used personal experience from my family and from others I know

But now that isn't relevant

The OP post child was not on a behaviour plan.
Generally children are excluded from all sorts of things. If incentives are offered such as - eg tea with the head or a special trip out with peers who are excelling- or certificates- not all children could expect that. But the possibility is still there throughout their school life.
I've already said there should be red lines for safety etc. making a distinction between what a child is likely to do in a prom which actually affects their safety or that of others. Those things should be risk assessed. A child who has epilepsy- you'd liaise with the parent/ have staff awareness- if strobe lighting affected them you might dispense with it. A child who has meltdowns- likely to be very specific circumstances and you'd know what they were. A child who bullies- you've often years of experience and opportunities to deal with and challenge- so it'd be very strange to suddenly start dealing with it at 15 and over that particular thing. What would you be trying to achieve that wasn't possible before? If you let go of the idea schools are dispensing justice through the prom you will realise the only good reason to exclude is actual safety in that event. Some of what you describe might come under that. Are they likely to deal drugs? Not a good idea. Shoplifting? Judgement call- is it going to manifest in the prom? Unlikely. Aggression to staff? Is it likely to occur? Not a good idea then. Going to the toilet?
They will all be doing that. Uniform- non issue.

Do you agree that kids' bad behavior should be punished to some degree, and that this is also good for their own development? Unless you believe the behavior points system is deeply flawed, punishment based on such points shouldn’t be a problem.

The thing is, there should be some form of punishment to let the girl know that bad behavior has consequences — something she cares about, but not something essential to her education. So some might think prom is a suitable choice.

Whether prom exclusion is an appropriate punishment is debatable. Personally, I don’t have a strong opinion either for or against that. But if you’re truly against it, you should support a national ban on schools using prom as a punishment tool and offer a good alternative.

Most consequences used in school are social exclusion, missing break time, missing lunchtime, excluded from trips.

Yes I do support that. But why do schools need me to suggest an alternative? Why can't they just do the things they did before there were proms as incentives? People on this thread are even confused as to whether it's a punishment or a sanction. Goodness knows how the kids see it. It's bizarre We are in this situation. We are back to the idea that this as a sanction has come to be seen as meaningful for kids when it's actually probably not. When did an adult ever say I'm glad I was excluded from the prom it really taught me a lesson?
I think you've made your own argument. Something she really cares about. Really wanting to be at a prom is sold to girls by our culture- US culture predominately-: as an idea, as hype. Being socially excluded is used more with girls. ( I read that somewhere)- bullying is also heavily tied up with social exclusion. The sanction would disproportionately affect girls which is another thing. Are schools struggling with girls more than boys?
I'd also concur with the other poster who is saying there needs to be much more focus on meeting needs. Taking a girl who is making progress and doing that to her just bespeaks a lack of responsible relationship

When did an adult ever say I'm glad I was excluded from the prom it really taught me a lesson? @Warmlight1

No one llikes to be punished or sanctioned, whatever you call it. But that doesn't mean it can't be beneficial when looking back years later. How you frame this punishment in context is crucial. Parents should teach their children to view it as a proper lesson, rather than feeling mistreated by the school and growing resentful, which I worry that the OP tends to do.

much more focus on meeting needs.

True, but we also have to consider the needs of other students, especially the need not to be distracted by kids with behavioral issues.

@Warmlight1
Actually, I think the real issue lies with the behaviour points system itself. The main problem is that it doesn’t include reasonable adjustments for SEN students. For behaviours beyond a child’s physical control, like needing the toilet unexpectedly, those should not be counted against them or should be dealt with more flexibly.

If those kinds of points were adjusted properly, her score would probably reach the 90% threshold, she could attend the prom, and there would be no problem at all.

This is just what the adults are telling themselves. It's an ending it's a important cultural ritual it's a method of transition a mark if development. There's no going back if you are barred. You might not see that but there are precious few of these type of things nowadays.

"Parents should teach their children to view it as a proper lesson",
Adults setting up a farewell party with the intention of not inviting people?
But there's no follow up? It's more like a kind of ghosting?

No way I'd be explaining that to my distraught autistic daughter if I were the OP. If she were likely to injure someone/ subject to some kind of serous risk assessment it'd be different obviously. If school.were nervous she'd leave unexpectedly I would offer to support the school by remaining there on hand. The rest I don't believe in it I don't really even like the concept of proms much - never having had to do all that myself- if what I do believe is it's inappropriate use of power, adults deliberately choosing to leave 15 year olds out of a party why would I trot all that out. It's nonsense. I'm.astonished at this whole idea.

With young people there is not always a clear distinction between punishment and reward. One thing can be both a reward for those who behave and a sanction or punishment for those who do not behave. Human behaviour and attempts to control it are often a mix of push and pull.

Before prom we had (and still have) end of year trips to theme parks, year 6 often have end of year trips to outward bound centres, there were a range of activities. However, these have stopped in many cases because schools couldn’t choose who goes. Many of the more exciting activities were slowly dropped as burnout teachers couldn’t be bothered fighting with parents whose children couldn’t behave at school but could absolutely be trusted on (for example) a cross channel ferry.
Parents who only have to manage the behaviour of one or two children see things like going to the toilet and not being supervised as a small thing while it fills teachers with cold dread. So the events stop.
Also, this event which is voluntary and meant as a treat becomes yet another way to criticise teachers, giving up your own time, effort, caring and money isn’t enough. If you don’t organise to the exacting standards of every parent you are bully who lacks professionalism. So the treats stop.
Threads like this are straws on the camels back that are shrinking the world of schools, it’s everything done perfectly or nothing at all. Enjoy your nothing.

"For behaviours beyond a child’s physical control, like needing the toilet unexpectedly, those should not be counted against them or should be dealt with more flexibly"

If this were true, the daughter would have a reasonable adjustment I.e. a toilet pass given to her.

Everyone is still assuming going to the toilet without permission is because she needs the toilet. Teachers and other school staff keep telling you that when it crops up on behaviour charts it’s usually not. It’s a pattern of behaviour where the child says they need the toilet but actually want to wander about/meet friends/potential worse, like vandalism or bullying. Nobody gets massive amounts of behaviour points for occasionally needing a wee in lesson time. The issue with regard to prom, as Jas been said many times, is that if she tends to wander off without permission it becomes a safeguarding issue in a public place.

Edit: you and others are also assuming the points system hasn’t already been adjusted for her needs.

The way the OP put it makes it seem like minor issues, such as uniforms or toilet breaks. Without further evidence, we just have to take the OP’s word for it. The OP also admits that her daughter’s behaviour 18 months ago warranted a sanction regarding the prom, but she claims the girl has improved significantly and now only faces minor issues. Again, we are just taking her word for it. There isn’t much else to comment on.

The way the OP put it is very vague. One of the things was ‘reminders’. From experience that won’t be reminding her to bring a pen (that would usually be called something like ‘missing equipment’), it’ll be reminders about basic behaviour more than likely. OP has been asked this and hasn’t elaborated - therefore I’m assuming the vagueness is to make everyone think it’s minor things when it isn’t.

I think the OP is just looking for practical advice on how to appeal the prom exclusion, rather than wanting people to question if the decision was justified in the first place. You are right that she might be being vague on purpose. As such, any analysis here is strictly hypothetical, as none of us participating in the discussion actually know the real truth.

But if the decision was justified, why should the school go back on it?

But what is stopping the parent employing that gentle 1:1 ta approach at home?

Why is school being expected to do everything. If you know your child is struggling at school and it's a simple as spending a Bit of time 1:1 with them each day why wouldn't you do this at home as a parent?
This also has the advantage that the child doesn't miss more of what's happening in class. Time spent with a TA 1:1 is time missing the lesson the rest of the class are participating in which results in more gaps /areas the child is a bit behind in.

People seem to think it's dead easy to catch a child up who's struggling but if it was as easy as you think schools would not have the issues they do. It's already very common practice to do small group interventions regularly with the children who are a bit behind, 1:1 with all the children struggling a tiny bit would be incredibly costly as its usually about 20% of the class who struggle!