Is it too late to prep for 11+?

[TrixieCat]

My daughter is in year 5. She just moved schools in September (both state schools) and her new school at her last parents evening asked whether we'd been thinking about grammar school applications for her. We hadn't really thought about it and now I've read that most parents are getting their children to prepare from year 4... We wouldn't be taking a high pressure approach to it; just some practice papers, lots of reading and maybe an app subscription so is it far too late?

I know it's tricky to answer as a lot comes down to aptitude and how well a child can perform under exam conditions, but does it sound unreasonable to try?

If you’re in an area like Bucks then it is perfectly possible for a bright child to pass the 11+ without huge amounts of tiutoring. The key is preparation and a realistic assessment as to whether the child is “grammar material”. The pace of learning is high in grammars and children are expected to keep up. The high levels of tutoring you see tend to come from those looking at the super selectives and independents (ie not a grammar county) or from the parents of average children trying to get them over the line.

Both mine passed with flying colours with no formal tutoring. The key is familiarity with the types of questions. The CGP books cover this. Once you know what the questions are actually asking then everything else falls into place. I mean, NVR needs a bit of explanation. Maths questions tend to be more wordy. Other than that it’s exam technique. Working very quickly, missing questions out to come back to, eliminating obviously incorrect answers and then making an educated guess etc. Also, if the test is done on paper in real life then practice on paper. In our experience those who only practiced on Atom were a bit out of their groove on the real thing.

Then just make sure they read widely.

I’m sure extra prep is needed for the super selectives etc but I do believe the tutoring in grammar counties comes from a vicious circle of parental anxiety after finding out others are being tutored.

The only very bright child I know who failed the Bucks 11+ was one who focussed on accuracy rather than speed. In the selection review it came to light that they got every single question they answered correct. They just didn’t do enough of the papers. At the same time they absolutely aced the ISEB (which is an adaptive test) and got three academic scholarship offers from independents.

Oh, and the one who wanted to go to the local non selective school with their mates so answered “A” to every single question……….

@tequilam0ckingbird I know lots of dc every year that don’t get a high enough score for the London grammar despite natural ability & tutoring. Many get indie places though often with a discount.

Hi, I am an 11+ tutor for the gloucestershire schools.
Where I am it is absolutley not too late to start.
BUT some areas are much, much more competative so it may be harder.
but also some areas eg Kent have a much higher percentage who pass the exam and end up in grammar schools, so may be easier!

One thing I would say, for a bright child, it is not too late to start. If you look at their last school report, then I would expect them to be achieving Greater Depth (or working above expectations) in English and Maths. If they are not, then it is a much harder ask.
But if you are going to do it, then get serious and do it. You will need to spend money on books, websites and resources and you will need to commit to 2-3 hours per week. You don't need a tutor, you do need to take time and effort.

Do some research, make sure you are clear which exam they will do, and what the format is in your area, eg for us, there is no written element at all, it is all mutiple choice style. So in preparing kids for it I do zero writing practice.

I recommend the CGP books, NOT the 10 minute practice books (they are good, and have their place) I mean the A4 sized ones called Practice Book with assessment tests, make sure it is for the correct test in your area (eg GL assessment test) and the correct age band (10-11)

I recommend these because they are set out in subject order. So you can do a page on eg ratio and see if that is an area that needs more work, or if they are fine. The answer sheets in the back are great because they actually explain why, which is very helpful. You will come across some things that they haven't done in school (ratio, possibly percentages, some of the geometry) but most is school curriculum for English and Maths.

Work through all the ones for your test (so for our area that is English, Maths, Verbal Reasoning (VR) and Non Verbal Reasoning (NVR)) for any subject area that is not secure, do more practise, find stuff online, get Bond or CGP practice books and practice until confident. Make sure when doing things online that you are doing the correct ones for your area NVR for CEM test is different to NVR for the GL test. VR has a lot of things which will need practise and explanation.
Hold off using the assessment tests at the back of the book until they have worked through the whole book and you are happy that they can do all the subject areas.

Then use the assessment tests. Timed, and get them to have a second go at the ones they get wrong.
Then start to think about exam technique:

• don't get stuck on a question, give it a go and then move on.
• use the answers you have been given to help you, you don't always need to work out the whole thing.
• what to do when you can't do something - clever guess and move on

those sort of things, and start to do things to a time limit. (this is where the 10 minute pratcice books can be really helpful) They don't need to be getting 100%. In our area, if they get 65% in teh CGP tests they will probably get into grammar school. (probably!)

Get some practice tests to use in the summer holidays.

Good luck!

My daughter decided she wanted to do 11 plus around a similar time in Y5 last year. She did Bexley test and Newstead. We didn't do tutors but did a lot of practice at home, particularly over summer holidays

She was aware she was at a disadvantage compared to people who started in y4 with tutors. She worked hard and passed the Newstead test, but not a high enough score to get a place. She was happy with her achievement and I think the work and exam conditions was good practice for her. We kept it low pressure and there was a non Grammar school she really liked. (Number 6 on waiting list atm). So, although she didn't get a grammar place, she doesn't regret it.

I don't think it's too late but you also have to be a little realistic.

Have you signed her up? Deadline is looming.

in Gloucestershire you can't sign up yet.

I don't think it's too late. We are currently going through the process with DD.

My advice would be to check the deadlines, to ensure it is an option, then ask DD whether they want to go for it. We put it to DD that if she did a test and got a high enough score it would give her more options for secondary schools but it would require working on maths and English after school. This means she is fully on board and while she has had some doubts, especially when she gets a low score, we can focus her back to the reason for it all.

In our area most tutors that I spoke to advise using the Bond books so we are working through those. If you can, try and organise a mock in a hall at some point so she can get a feel of what it's like. DD did one a few weeks ago and one of her first responses after was that it was weird going into hall etc.

As other PPs have mentioned check what is covered in the exam as this depends on area and even by school. Ours are fully written with no VR or NVR whereas another school has a mixture of written and multiple choice.

Our local primary school run an afterschool club 2 nights a week for 45 mins. (it’s a paid for thing and they limit it to 10-12 kids I think it depends how many sign up for is as to how much it is. People are expected to commit to the full course and pay in full
up front so that the costs are
covered even if you drop out - they have a parents information event first to go thru it all)

this is with a tutor and this happens from October in year 5 until they do the exam. They get the 2 sessions, a log on to some sort of system and then get set homework too but my eldest didn’t do it and my other too won’t.

I don’t think 11+ preparation is just about doing practice papers, working through questions, or having formal tutoring.

All that early brain work, going deeper into maths, plenty of reading and writing and building vocabulary counts as proper prep. The extensive English and maths teaching and homework they get at a good prep school counts too.

I don’t think actual exam practice is that big a part. Having a good general level of ability matters way more. High IQ and natural strong academic ability act as a head start anyway.

If a child doesn’t have that solid general grounding, they’ll need loads of focused exam practice. It could take ages and there’s still no guarantee of getting into a highly competitive school. However, if they’re already pretty able and have a good base, they won’t need nearly as much time on just exam stuff.

I would start by checking DC's recent SAS scores, like English and Maths progress tests and CAT4. They can be a really useful benchmark for working out how much preparation time they are likely to need for the 11+. Every kid is different.

definitely not too late at all. my son just passed the Sutton tests this year and we did at home learning. if you are aiming for this area though, CGP are not hard enouhg, and you need harder practice tests. if you can get into some mock tests all the better

Can you recommend some resources for 11+ English? I bought some 11+ English practice books for my DD several months ago and she.got full marks on Bond first try, and also full marks on all the different text types in First Past the Post comprehension. I’m just not sure if it’s still worth her continuing with these.

We used Examberry and Exam paper plus, we moved to these once my son had completed the PTA run mocks at Wallington county. We continued doing 10 minute tests on CGP but the full tests were far easier than the mocks and the actual exams. He said that the actual 11plus was somewhere between the Examberry (easier) and Exam paper plus (harder) practice papers. Sutton do not use an examboard so there are no past papers. If you are doing this area - feel free to PM if i can help at all, but I'm in no way an expert!

She'll need some home practice with timed tests to get her into answering quick enough and familiar with question styles. Beyond that she should not need 'prepping'. Some kids who are prepped to within an inch of their lives tend to get good results at the 11+, yes, but then can't take the pressure of the actual school.

If she does these in the correct timings then she must be near genius level so won't need to do hours of work to get into the school she wants! My son could do all of it 100% but needed to work on the speed aspect.

Not too late at all, especially if she's naturally able - the verbal reasoning paper you did with her sounds promising!
We started later than most and found that a mix of CGP books, some timed practice, then Atom, and finally an app called YoungLearning/Learners made a real difference - it's arcade-style so doesn't feel like grinding through past papers which helped keep my DC motivated. Worth a look alongside the CGP work.
Good luck to her! 🤞

If your daughter is clever and willing to put in a bit of effort at whatever prep you do, I absolutely think you can do it. We did a very similar amount of prep from spring of Y5 and got the desired outcome.

Mine did it from about May of year 5. I do think you need a bit of tutoring as the 11+ generally covers stuff that isn't taught until Y6. It helps if they're motivated and focused.

Verbal reasoning and more importantly non verbal reasoning both have types of questions that a good tutor can identify and prep for. I have invigilated at 11+ and it was really a game of two halves, the prepped kids who were champing at the bit to get going and the non prepped kids who looked at the NVR as though it was written in Klingon.

@swdd silly question but would an independent school be able to provide this?

worth remembering however that not all areas do VR and NVR, and I know that schools in my area dont do CAT4.

My dd’s sas scores are listed in her term school report at her independent primary.

VR and NVR are very similar to IQ tests. A naturally bright kid can still ace them, even without preparation.

nope, not in the time given and not with the trick questions that they include. Also, you need an extensive vocabulary (better than most adults) to pass verbal reasoning. It's feasible that a very bright child doesn't have the vocabulary needed.

Definitely not too late. My son is no genius but got a high enough score to get into a super selective grammar by working through a few CPG books in the summer with us. It’s really important to be familiar with the type of
questions asked before the exam, there is no way he would have even passed without any preparation. Unless very time deprived, I think it’s often best to tutor your child yourself.

I’d say not too late as well. My twins only started preparing after they’d looked round the grammar schools at the beginning of year 5. We got them some workbooks and helped where needed, no tutors. They both passed.