Conflict with Y5 child over 11+ prep

[CherishL]

Has anyone had quarrels or arguments with their children during 11+ preparation?

My Year 5 son is academically bright and also very talented in music. We have been saving so that he can attend an independent school, as there are no grammar schools where we live, although there are some very good independent ones nearby.

However, I often feel that he is not as proactive as he should be, and I am becoming quite tired of constantly reminding him what to do. We even created a weekly schedule together showing when and what he should study, but he does not follow it. I also tried letting him plan his own study times, but he struggles to stick to that as well.

Today it reached the point where I ended up yelling at him and telling him not to do it anymore if he does not want to. It made me wonder whether perhaps he is not suited to a very competitive school environment, where many children seem highly driven and self-motivated.

Have any other parents experienced something similar? How did you manage it? Any advice or strategies that worked for you? And did your child still end up getting a place at the school they were hoping for?

But in a way what may sound onerous isn't, if it was she wouldn't self motivate herself into doing it.

I'd worry the other way. Why does your 12 year old, in what sounds like a fairly routine school test (i.e not end of year exams etc) feel the need to do 4 hours revision when an hour would suffice? How will she cope when she gets further up the school, the volume of work increases and the results matter more (GCSE, A Level)?

You said "it’s unusual for a dc to not get one of their options" - I just commented that of course it's possible to get one of the options, I had two back up options on my list and people usually have at least one, but VAT has changed the landscape and decisions people make. One of my back up options has already announced closure as normal people find it hard to justify spending on an average (if you take offence at "mediocre" :) ) school.

Ah yes, that makes sense. Perhaps, my dc could spend more time on their work. They are very independent and get it all done....but we do wonder why they seem to have so little hw!

I suppose it's a mix of things. She always wants to try her best, a little competition comes into play but it's not the main thing imo. A lot of her friends will probably do about the same, and like I say she's been accustomed from a young age to doing quite a lot of homework and a bit more.

A lot of it previously has been "trust the process", i.e. work a little bit harder than the rest for years, get advanced and it makes it a whole lot easier. By the time she gets to GCSE she should be in great shape, well ahead of the game and not stressed.

One of the best teachers DC ever had was a former lawyer. I don't even know if they had any teaching qualification and I couldn't care less.
Some comments from supposedly qualified teachers on MN are appalling and they shouldn't be in profession with those attitudes, qualifications notwithstanding.

This thread throws open wide the disparity between different areas and school types across the country. It's a very broken system sadly. We know first hand the difference between the required level to get into the popular independents in London and in other areas as we applied to both (considering moving). I'm sure most parents in London also want their kids to just be kids and not have a pressured childhood - but the reality is that you have to do at least as much as everyone else, and in London that has escalated to crazy levels. People look at these London school results and think these schools are amazing - but I'm pretty sure results throughout the country would also improve dramatically if most students were doing at least 2 years of tutoring before they started secondary!
'Is it worth it?' is so very hard to say.
Someone said upthread that most people get at least one offer, but in my experience, most get offers either from all, or just their backups.
Also those comparing grammar with private: you can only do this in the same area. Grammar in London is harder to get into than the selective independents in London, but those selective London independents are harder to get into than grammar schools in 'grammar school areas' where most sit 11+.
If you live somewhere where everyone has good access to really decent comprehensives, or you have a super self-motivated child (and so don't understand why people put themselves through this or how hard it is) then please don't comment on threads like this!

Give the poor kid a break. You sound pushy and competitive

I'd say that grammars and independent super selective schools in London use slightly different criteria. It's irrelevant for HBS if a child is confident, has unusual interests or projects outside the standard curriculum, has sports or music achievements - you can pretty much get in on VR/NVR/Eng alone if you're in catchment. It's a very different story for SPGS admissions :)

We had a few very difficult moments during 11+ prep and yes there was some shouting and threatening to stop all the prep from both us and her at times. But now it's all done and she had the choice of all the best schools she is very greatful and looking forward to year 7. I would look at how much you need to do, prioritising weak areas and if you need to dial right back on piano, reduce the French for a few months, not do the school homework then do that and also make sure he does get good chunks of free time to do what he wants and help him not waste it with stretching out routine tasks. We helped our DD with some things she would normally do herself like make her bed, tidy up etc to make sure we were minimising non 11+ battles.

It isn't just boys

but VAT has changed the landscape and decisions people make. One of my back up options has already announced closure as normal people find it hard to justify spending on an average (if you take offence at "mediocre" :) ) school.

Ime the impact of VAT is overstated in London, fees themselves have increased hugely over the years, then add wage stagnation, high housing costs and many “normal” people were priced out before VAT.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "overstated" if the school I'm talking about had managed to stay open fore more than 100 years despite all the increases you mentioned, then folded within a year after VAT. I was prepared to pay 15-20k for it if everything else went wrong but I certainly wouldn't pay 30k as it was never worth that much, with no facilities and decent but not stellar results.

Top boys schools are increasingly accepting girls not because they suddenly saw the light either.

It's not just in London btw. I had a quick look at the national top 100 schools list and some of them are now charging around 40k - we've been to some of them and I cannot see how you can justify this much for that quality, it's not value for money.

I'm a pauper obviously and cannot splash my cash just like that :) The closure confirms I'm not the only pauper in London though.

When does he get to play?

Online tuition is probably a waste of time and money. I'd expect a Y5 to have f2f tuition of an hour covering both maths and English. A student doing 11+ needs an hours f2f tuition but not as well as. The French thing is up to you. Kids who do this in Y5 usually end up totally burnt out.

I can also tell you lots of parents who thrust their children into the schools with forced training to pass these exams and it’s been a disaster

Prep schools literally "prep" the whole of yr 5 and 6 to pass 11+ and entrance exams to independents. I went through this myself and came out with 3 top grade a levels and a good degree from a Russell Group university. It was certainly not a disaster. Interviews are normal at this stage and the schools can see through a child that has been over prepped in a heartbeat. They do, however, need to develop exam technique however bright they are.

Yes, 11+ prep were the worst years of our lives. Are you doing past papers so he can see what his scores are like? No strategies other than working to earn Xbox and screen timr. Good luck.

We had exactly this. The turning point for us was taking long learning sessions off the table completely and doing just 15-20 minutes on one specific topic at a time. When DS could see he was actually getting better at something specific his attitude started changing. He went from resistant to a bit more willing. We tried eztutor.co.uk which was like topic by topic rather than full papers. Might be worth letting him choose which topic to start on. the sense of control makes a big difference at this age. Its not about what resources you choose its more the flexibility you give them i think.

I do wonder if children in their adulthood will thank parents for pushing them into a selective school

I have two dc who are in selective schools (both in the top10) and they very much wanted to go there and are very thankful to be there. I did not push them though, they did the prep willingly. I was fine if they decided they wanted to go to state and not do the 11+, but also said if they want to go to the selective schools they need to prep for it. So it was up to them. I think it depends on the experience of the individual. It is different if the dc is feeling a lot of pressure in the school. Both of my dc are in academic schools, but they do not feel any pressure at all.

Regardless of
your question you need to apologize for yelling at him don’t let him think that’s normal or he’ll end up with a wife who yells at him

I was chatting to one colleague who is exactly HB, and she said she was tutored from 4. Currently pretty distant from her parents. Similar for ex St Paul's.

There's a couple of grammar threads up above and its frightening how good these kids are at just 9/10 so the competition is huge.

@CherishL im trying to tutor mine myself. Ive just been going slowly over the last year with ATOM and CGP but they do push back when playing and there's me saying do you want to do a bit of study now! Im stronger at Maths myself so gravitate towards that but I can see from ATOM scores that mine are weaker at the English/VR/nvr so I need to get on top of those. I just havent a clue what's enough!

My parents ‘pushed me’ because they knew I was capable but at age 9/10 - obviously wanted to do more fun stuff!
I’m glad they did and I’m massively proud of everything I’ve achieved because of parents who helped in maximising my potential rather than lazy parenting

So glad we moved out of London and to a non grammar school area. This pressure is mental. Mine are happy with lots of friends and great exam results. This stress and pressure on such young children is really awful. You do know they graduate after all this angst and there aren’t any jobs?!? Enjoy your childhood while you can I say.

Poor kid.

Boys take longer to mature. My summer born boy - bright and very talented at music - was not prepared to sit down and do extra tutoring, 11+ , music practice etc etc.

He went to our local comprehensive (v high PP, ESOL, etc) , was in top sets , they had an excellent music programme, he thrived and was a high achiever and did very well indeed - but the difference between his capacity for concentrating, sitting down etc, changed hugely when he was about 12. HIs best friend, also a late summer born boy, was really struggling in maths when he left primary school, was in middle sets - and then blossomed and ended up with the same degree result as my Ds.

Support them at their own pace and within their own interests. You have laden too much on your young child, IMO. And its too much if you end up shouting at him - you will make him feel a failure.

IMHO, the bright and less self-motivated kids can get the best value from selective independent schools. They can easily be influenced by the environment and cohort - and will thrive where the low bar is high and teachers are trying to push their potential. For prep， the carrot and stick method works depending on your parental style. For example, focused learning/progress/worksheets can earn some game time; bad attitude leads to TV/playtime ban etc