Conflict with Y5 child over 11+ prep

[CherishL]

Has anyone had quarrels or arguments with their children during 11+ preparation?

My Year 5 son is academically bright and also very talented in music. We have been saving so that he can attend an independent school, as there are no grammar schools where we live, although there are some very good independent ones nearby.

However, I often feel that he is not as proactive as he should be, and I am becoming quite tired of constantly reminding him what to do. We even created a weekly schedule together showing when and what he should study, but he does not follow it. I also tried letting him plan his own study times, but he struggles to stick to that as well.

Today it reached the point where I ended up yelling at him and telling him not to do it anymore if he does not want to. It made me wonder whether perhaps he is not suited to a very competitive school environment, where many children seem highly driven and self-motivated.

Have any other parents experienced something similar? How did you manage it? Any advice or strategies that worked for you? And did your child still end up getting a place at the school they were hoping for?

@CherishL the 11+ is usually used for state grammar schools. The independent schools usually have their own entrance tests. Are you sure your DC needs the 11+?

One of my DC took an entrance test for a local private school just incase she didn’t pass the 11+. I was told by the private school their entrance test was just to see if there were any issues that they would be unable to accommodate, ie. if your child is bright they’ll be accepted.

Call the independent school to see what is their requirement from their test. You may be pushing your son for no reason as he’ll sail through.

For the love of God, no wonder he resists, sounds like hell. He is what, 10? My ds who is 16 doesn't do that much revision. Pushy mum, unhappy child,
He will be unhappy then leave at 18. Just relax.

I teach ks5 at state school. My Asian mum friends who push the kids to zchievd at 11+ have unhappy children.
Let him play and be a child.

Why did you remove him from his prep school? By placing him in an environment where all / most pupils won’t be preparing for the 11 plus or entrance exams you are making it more difficult for him.

Agree, ime languages at year 7 private secondary entry tend to assume little prior knowledge and go back to basics. It might be worth checking the schools you are hoping for a place at. 13+ entry would be a different matter. Unless there is a specific need to keep French up you could relax on that. @converseandjeansI don’t get the sense op would be content to save up for fees at a non selective and has higher ambitions for her ds,

We did state grammar four times and the approach with every child was different, depending on what worked best for them. With the girls, we did 10 minutes a day every day except Sunday throughout year 5. With DS2 we crammed over the summer holidays before the exams. With DS1 we did barely anything except inference and reading comprehension - he is autistic but extremely academic.
For most kids, 10-15 minutes in the morning works ok. Or after snack/school of followed by a reward straight after. Little but often but incorporated into routine is the most gentle approach. And yes, I think many cut back on extracurricular. We didn’t and did it ourselves but I think quite a high starting point for mine and not many gaps and it was very obvious what they needed to practise and what they were just good at.

We did state grammar four times and the approach with every child was different, depending on what worked best for them. With the girls, we did 10-15 minutes a day every day, except Sunday, throughout year 5. With DS2 we crammed over the summer holidays before the exams. With DS1 we did barely anything except inference and reading comprehension - he is autistic but extremely academic.
For most kids, 10-15 minutes in the morning works ok. Or after snack/school if followed by a reward straight after. Little but often but incorporated into routine is the most gentle approach. And yes, I think many cut back on extracurricular. We didn’t and did it ourselves (no paid tutor) but I think quite a high starting point for mine and not many gaps and it was very obvious what they needed to practise and what they were just good at and needed just familiarisation/exam technique.

Not sure why that posted twice, sorry!
Did you get hold of relevant past papers for the schools you are targeting so you know which bits he actually needs help with? My understanding is that it can really differ for independent schools and I would be focussed on what they are specifically looking for.

I used to be an 11+ tutor with a pretty high success rate. Most of the children I tutored really enjoyed the academic rigour once they got into it, and some were able to motivate themselves to study without much parental involvement. But most required prompting, that is very normal.

The key is pulse learning- it should be quick and snappy and focus on getting the biggest results in the least time possible. So, say your focus is non-verbal reasoning- pick a question type that you know he finds difficult, find five example questions and maybe add in another couple of questions based on a type he’s learned previously and sprinkle them in to keep the technique fresh. Go through the first together to model the method (ask if he can teach you first, and gently correct any errors, if he really can’t then model for him and ‘think aloud’ so he can see how you work through it). Print yourself a worksheet too, then you both do it without conferring. Make some mistakes on yours, and get him to explain where you went wrong. They need company a lot of the time to make it less dreary and feel more like quality time together.

Past papers have their place but I generally used them maybe once a term to measure progress, then we did quite a lot as we came close to the test to work on exam technique. But generally, quality over quantity is more effective.

The whole process should take 10-15 minutes and be extremely productive. Rotate the subjects- NVR on Monday, VR on Tuesday etc.

Poor child - what has happened to childhood?

I was sympathetic until I read how much your son is already doing. It sounds like a lot and feels like how you burnout a kid.

My son did 10 mins of daily prep for the month before the test - I just combined it with his piano practice (about 15-20 mins). Just short bursts but regularly. However some days he didn’t want to because he was tired or just not in the mood. And I didn’t push him hard because I could totally relate. I also didn’t want him to start thinking negatively about any of it.

I know the majority of parents on these forums do a lot more prep but that’s what worked for us.

@LIZS yes but how do you define selective? If there’s a few private schools locally they all need to fill their classrooms. There’s no way that the entrance exam mark will need to be as high as a student looking to get into the one grammar school in a working class area. There’s only going to be a minority who can afford private & I’m of the opinion that an entrance test for private school is just a way to make it seem harder to get into & so parents feel they have a bright student. I personally think it’s just a way of banding the students so they know which group to put them in.

Obviously, it depends what kind of Independent school. There are many that are selective. I assume her son must be preparing for a selective one...otherwise no need to prep. The top schools some children prep 2 years in advance.

Most people do not list "having dinner" in answer to a question about when their child gets downtime. Since you only list the other things at weekends, I assume that means he doesn't get to do them on weekdays?

Your child is in conflict with you because he doesn't want to do this volume of work. Consider cutting it back, and, if it is absolutely necessary keep it to short bursts of 15 minutes or so.

Drop the French
little and often works best
i worked with mine so they did stuff with me

dinner is not downtime

When my DBs were at school everyone took the 11+ and if you passed you went to Grammar school. But no one ever had coaching for it. You either passed or didn't. If they have to have all this coaching I don't think it is the right thing for them.

Oh my god, that’s way too much.

I’d stop the French right now, what’s the point of that?? 11+ isn’t going to be testing French and once he starts secondary he’ll be learning a language from scratch anyway with no assumed previous knowledge.

For my 2 we just had Atom learning for verbal and non-verbal reasoning and then in the summer holidays after year 5 they did some past papers.

In the autumn term of year 6 before the 11+ exams they had a few hours of English and maths tutoring as some last minute prep.

Both my kids sat entrance tests for 4 or 5 highly competitive independent schools each and they all gave offers. They both were also offered academic scholarships.

I have never heard of kids doing as much as you’re expecting your child to for 11+.

I’d just give you a hug and answer the question you asked: we had many fights with both of my DCs over 11+ studies, so you are not alone. We got to the point with the second one where I was ready to give up and told her that I would no longer push, and she can just go to a local state school. But she asked me not to give up on her, and with each next tantrum I would remind her of that. We pulled through it in the end, and got into our top choice school. Time will tell whether it was worth the effort.

FWIW, your son’s timetable doesn’t look particularly intense to me, but my perspective may be skewed. We’re in the world of a semi-professional sport, so there was very little of downtime - it’s either a training or 11+ study (in each case, on top of homework). The only thing I’d remove is daily TV time, but that’s of course up to you. Good luck in any event!

How do the high attainers do?

How selective and competitive are the schools where you are moving? If you are in London where the competition for the super selectives is still intense then maybe all this pressure makes sense. Otherwise it seems way too extreme.

DD applied this year for 2 independents (non London) from a happy but not particularly academically aspirational state primary. Even in the run up to the exams we did no more than 20 minutes extra prep a day. In year 5 we did nothing extra- we only started in the summer holidays.

DD is an academically focused kid but I would have had a hell of a lot of pushback if I’d been asking her to do even half what you are asking your DS to do.

Thank you to those who responded and shared useful tips. DS actually enjoys learning and does want to go to a good school.

To answer some of the questions:

1. DS’s previous school was a French bilingual school. We moved him to a local primary school in Year 4 so that he could focus on the English curriculum in preparation for the 11+ later. Not specifically for 11+ purposes, he started Saturday French classes to maintain the language, as we do not speak it at home. This also explains why some extra English tuition is needed, as he previously only had 50% of his lessons in English. We started with one hour of reading comprehension last September and only added a second hour for creative writing last month, which was when I started noticing these issues.

1. We are based in London. The schools we are considering all have 11+ entry points. They are all very competitive and have long waiting lists. There are more girls’ schools nearby; unfortunately, the options for boys are more limited. At the moment, we are not considering non-selective private schools.

DS himself has said that his previous school provided a more challenging curriculum, whereas his current one feels too easy. He has also mentioned that the behaviour of students at the local secondary school is not very good, as he sees them every day when he walks past after school. He says he would like to go somewhere where he can be challenged.

I think the main issue is that he spends a lot of time on everyday tasks - eating, showering, going to the toilet, etc. He is slow with everything, and he can spend hours on something he is interested in, which then delays the start of things he is supposed to do. For example, I once found him still in the bathroom reading a book after 1.5 hours when he was meant to have showered. As a result, he ends up having very little time for other “downtime” activities during the week, even though he finishes school at 3:30 pm. When I say we do 11+ work at weekends, it might just mean a 10-minute Maths or NVR test, which he is brilliant at. However, he might spend four or five hours writing an English story to perfect it when he was only asked to spend 20 - 30 minutes on it.

To conclude, I am not worried about his academic ability. It is more his proactivity and self-discipline that concern me, and whether this might make it difficult for him to cope in a very competitive environment. Thank you again to those parents who have kindly shared their experiences.

@CherishL sending you a private message.

OP does he do any activities outside of the home / any physical activities / hang out with friends? I find your comment about being slow at normal activities like eating sleeping showering so limited time for downtime activities quite odd. He’s a child who needs time to behave like a child.

With a year 7 DC in an academically selective London independent, your timings don’t look off to me but the idea that you just expect him to
get on with it alone stands out. Most everyone in my DC’s class had a tutor, multiple tutors, or parents being tutors. I don’t know anyone who had success by just being expecting a y5 child to get on with it alone. That’s a bit like saying ‘go revise’ to someone who has no idea how to ‘revise’.

is there a structure to what you are expecting him to do at home? Online structure like Atom or a set of books to work through? Or just ‘go study’? It needs way more support than that. If there is structure, he may still benefit greatly from someone sitting nearby also working on their own thing, but being there if questions arise or to stop any long daydreams.

We are now to the point in y7 where the newness is gone and the personality types are showing. Pay attention to the school’s indication of homework load. There are so many parents in our y7 who sound shocked that there is still work to do and they thought that would be done after they got in, which is confusing because our school made it very clear that the homework expectation was significant. Mine still gets on happily if someone else is around also doing something work like - so go to the library after school when other students are doing homework or at home when we have things to do but not at home while others are watching tv/playing a game. Some are really starting to rebel. Just keep the long game in mind.

If he’s bright, wants to be challenged and gets into a selective school, he will probably up his game. The school will have its own expectations of him, so obviously be supportive, but I would advise you to step back a bit. They really do have to do it for themselves at secondary school, and pressure from school and home could make for a very unhappy child.

How selective are the privates you are aiming for. Most are less competitive than the best state grammars.

Having said that your schedule wouldn’t be unusual for a dc aiming for a top grammar.