If you're a teacher who advises students on their A Level options ...

[inthisvehicle]

... which of these factors influence your advice, and in what order?:
1.The student's stated interests or career aspiration (and your confidence in their ability to reach their goals).
2.The student's predicted KS4 grades?
3.Attracting good students to your own subject area? (Please say what that is).
4.The school's need to fill up undersubscribed courses.
5.The school's aspiration to retain students that might otherwise go to college or elsewhere.
6.The Office for Students' guidance to HE institutions on its strategic priorities, and their categorisation of some courses as low value.
7.Trends in the graduate job market which show that some courses are more likely to lead to "graduate-level" jobs than others.

Fwiw, my personal experience as a parent (which might not be typical) is that 1-5 are all influential but that not all teachers have visibility of or interest in 6 or 7. As a consequence, they advise based on their own past experience of university, which can be out of date.

I’m senior in the media and we are crying out for people with brilliant English and analytical skills, as provided by A-levels in subjects such as English and history. Don’t write off creative subjects. You all love film and TV right? Who do you think is creating this incredible content?

DD is 14 and not long done her GCSE choices. Like the majority of schools in this area, the school doesn't have a Sixth Form, instead there are several colleges to chose from. As part of the GCSE choices process, they had a "Careers Fair" with the local colleges, training schemes etc so they could see the options for 16+ and the best GCSE/Lv2 options to get them where they want to be at 16, and what those courses lead to. That's A levels, apprenticeships, T Levels, Vocational colleges etc. Parents could go as well, it was really informative.

Nobody is writing them off - I agree they are needed. The graduates you want with the 'brilliant' English and analytical skills are not the graduates of media and film studies courses with low entry grades. Many students choose those courses because they want to access jobs like yours, but the majority don't make the cut because they are not brilliant enough.

But if they are studying Eng Lit or History at a mid tier uni because someone told them most employers don't care about what degree they have, and they should therefore just do what they want, then they were given out of date advice.

Are you suggesting the ISE data stating 86% of graduate employers don't ask for a specific degree is wrong?
Because someone should tell their CEO as that's what he presented to me and my staff only a few weeks ago.

Not asking for a specific degree often means asking for a generic life sciences degree or physical sciences degree, or maths-related degree, or technology degree or engineering degree, which is very different to asking for "any degree".

No it doesn't.

Incorrect. If an employer needs a ‘generic’ life science degree, that means they want a specific degree. Given the range of degree titles with broadly the same content it would be ridiculous to ask for a BSc in Biology only and rule out those with BScs in Biological Sciences with Zoology. Hence asking for ‘generic’ life science degrees. That is in the group ‘specific’ degrees.

When employers - the vast majority - ask for a degree in any subject, they mean a degree in subject. Not a degree in any subject as long as it’s life science.

And hollow laugh at your point about the all knowing Gov funding and defunding subjects. I’ll remind you Computing was moved to a lower price group some years ago. Masters and other PG quals also ‘defunded’ - despite current Gov policy to develop L7 AI skills for example. Gov policies in this area are not designed to nudge demand, they’re to save money pure and simple, with a tiny sop to supply side encouragement to align with industrial strategy.

Indeed, however many schools still don’t offer it.

Yes it does. This is a report of the survey (from 2021): https://repository.derby.ac.uk/download/f6b8259130d51eb76f0427975229908bcd286f624ce5ac08ddd0bda490b5120c/7596132/ISE%20Student%20Recruitment%20Survey%202021-final-published.pdf

It received 177 responses from large student employers, covering 45,312 hires across graduates, school and college leavers, interns, and placement students. 95% of them (168) said they employed graduates. Of those, 20% answered yes to the question about expecting a specific degree, implying that 80% (c134) don't want a specific degree.

But that does not mean that every one of their advertised graduate jobs needs "any degree". In practice, they are likely to be recruiting a wide range of graduates. Some of them (e.g. HR, Management trainees) many need "any degree". However others (e.g. in finance, legal or IT departments) will require a related degree. Anyone who has browsed graduate jobs on Indeed or other similar sites will know this to be true. Unfortunately, the single question in the survey does not tell you anything about how many graduate jobs require a related degree.

But that does not mean that every one of their advertised graduate jobs needs "any degree".

Nobody has actually said that though...

Have you actually read the report you shared? It states that it is relatively rare for an employer to specify a particular degree subject (14%) but that this clearly differs between sectors.
I know the authors of this report and the CEO who provided the foreword. They are well known experts in the field of career development and graduate employability. I've heard them speak to this (and similar reports) and they do place a great deal of emphasis on the fact that many employers don't ask for specific subjects and the the degree classification and skills developed are a priority. This is clearly caveated with the fact that sectors and jobs differ as it is in the report.

@HighLadyofTheNightCourt yes, I read it, and then I looked at what question was actually asked. Any critical thinker should be able to see that the statement "it can relatively rare for an employer to specify a particular degree subject (14%)" is compatible with the results that were obtained for the question that was asked, but that the question was far too high level for you to conclude that 86% of graduate jobs need "any degree"

The question should be something like "What percentage of your graduate roles are open to applicants with any degree subject?"

That is a completely different question, so will get different results.

The 86% figures refers to graduate employers not graduate jobs.
I've never used that figure to refer to graduate jobs, just employers.

Yes, the question is only asked at employer level rather than at role level. That's why it is a bad question for large employers who employ lots of different types of graduates - obviously they don't all need a specific degree subject!

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Maybe you could pass that on to your friends who wrote the report. 🙂

Your delivery is so unbelievably patronising...anyhoo

The report is about Graduate Employers which is why it focuses on that higher level data. It's not about individual jobs. This type of report is aimed at this working in employer engagement. They need to know general trends in recruitment practice rather than the detailed job descriptions. This report does exactly what it is supposed to.

If you want more nuanced and detailed information linked to degree subjects then you'd look elsewhere.

"The report is about Graduate Employers which is why it focuses on that higher level data. It's not about individual jobs."

I completely agree. That's exactly why it can't be used to counteract the point I waa making in my post at 10.21. I don't disagree with the facts in the report, but only to your reference to the report in the context of disagreeing with that post.

@inthisvehicleIm not sure what you think an engineering degree is. Plenty of universities will want to see As or Bs at A level for BEng and MEng. Yrs the degrees can lead to vocational work like a medicine degree but have wider options such as accounting, finance, or indeed anything numerate. These degrees are not vocational at the higher level, but are a mix of vocational and academic. To earn well you need to have a variety of skills which often grads don’t have.

I disagree with you and still disagree with your 10.21 post.
There is nothing to suggest that not asking for a specific degree translates to asking for those specific subject areas.
If an employer wants a specific subject or subject area they ask for it.

@TizerorFizz I think we already had that conversation. I quoted Birmingham City as an example of a BEng course accessible to applicants with low A level results, which nevertheless has good graduate outcomes, and I specifically quoted the figure for engineering-related outcomes rather than any job. It's not too hard to find Birmingham City BEng grads on linkedin who have solid engineering jobs.

I know you see civil engineering through the lens of your husband's recruitment preferences, but there are a wide range of roles. Some earn more than others, but they are all skilled graduate jobs that pay better than minimum wage.

You're missing the point. If an employer wants a specific subject or subject area in some departments, but not in others, or needs different subject areas in different departments, they will usually answer no to the question about expecting a specific degree.

Take the NHS, for example. As an employer, if they are asked "Do your graduate recruits need a specific degree?" and they are only given a choice of yes or no, they will obviously tick no. And yet, most of their jobs do need a degree that is related to the role.

I’m not missing the point. You’re making this into something it’s not.
We’re discussing general graduate recruitment trends not individual employers or students. The fact is there are a significant number of graduate employers who have roles that are open to graduates from a wide range of disciplines. That doesn’t mean ALL roles will, nobody getting a job as a radiographer with a history degree but the NHS do have a wide range of jobs where a history degree would be sufficient.
This information is very useful for students who are studying courses that don’t lead directly to a job. Understanding the skills employers are looking for is important for both students and university staff as it helps prepare graduates for this type of labour market.

Parents and students need to take the initiative to research and figure out the steps required to achieve their goals, whether it's A-levels or degrees.
Visiting official company websites should be a priority to explore job openings and understand the qualifications and experience employers are seeking. Relying solely on teachers for this information isn’t ideal, as they may not always know what companies are looking for.
For instance, I recently checked JPMorgan's UK site and found many job openings requiring qualifications that some teachers here have claimed won’t be necessary in the future. This suggests they might be misinforming students and parents. And this is just one example of the broader issue.
Thousands of companies currently list numerous job openings on their websites, but there aren’t enough qualified candidates to fill them.

How do predicted grades work for history and why do you think they're bollocks?

Anyone willing to disabuse themselves of the notion that the vast majority of jobs are "any degree" jobs need only spend a few minutes on LinkedIn, Indeed, or any other job market site

That’s not true of specialist grad recruitment though. Have you checked those as well as LinkedIn? No, thought not.

Nobody has said that the majority of jobs are ‘any degree jobs’ though have they?

We were discussing the data that says the vast majority of graduate employers don’t ask for a specific degree. That means they have a range of jobs, some of which are open to graduates from a range of disciplines.