If you're a teacher who advises students on their A Level options ...

[inthisvehicle]

... which of these factors influence your advice, and in what order?:
1.The student's stated interests or career aspiration (and your confidence in their ability to reach their goals).
2.The student's predicted KS4 grades?
3.Attracting good students to your own subject area? (Please say what that is).
4.The school's need to fill up undersubscribed courses.
5.The school's aspiration to retain students that might otherwise go to college or elsewhere.
6.The Office for Students' guidance to HE institutions on its strategic priorities, and their categorisation of some courses as low value.
7.Trends in the graduate job market which show that some courses are more likely to lead to "graduate-level" jobs than others.

Fwiw, my personal experience as a parent (which might not be typical) is that 1-5 are all influential but that not all teachers have visibility of or interest in 6 or 7. As a consequence, they advise based on their own past experience of university, which can be out of date.

Pupils should have access to a level 6 guidance professional-
Level 6 careers advisors play a crucial role in guiding individuals towards informed career decisions. They possess advanced knowledge and skills to support individuals through complex career planning, including those with significant obstacles. These professionals are essential for helping people navigate the ever-evolving job market, develop career-related learning strategies, and achieve their full potential

See benchmark 8 of the Gatsby Benchmarks
https://www.careersandenterprise.co.uk/educators/gatsby-benchmarks/

@inthisvehicleThe new free school secondary school in the small town I grew up in has just closed its 6th form. It’s in a grammar LA, and with a great grammar school just 15 minutes drive away, its 6th form has been a short lived experiment. Obviously the brightest 25% are elsewhere already.

Schools want them to boost pupil generated money except they don’t when they are small. Many dc cannot access the A level courses satisfactorily and the school cannot offer a broad range of subjects, eg no MFLs or Chemistry! It’s obvious the bright dc don’t want to stay and the FE college, 25 minutes in the other direction is a much better bet for many less academic dc. Schools should not push dc into 6th forms to then see them do poorly. Ofsted also didn’t like what it saw in this 6th form either. So it’s gone.

@NW3Lady Why would they leave when the tax payer puts a thumping 24-28% into their pensions? It would be economic madness. Most doctors who are established don’t leave and my Dr neighbour has 2 Dr children. Ditto several at my GP surgery. They don’t seem put off at all but they’ve had a very decent lifestyle and a very good retirement very early. They only need to work full time for around 30 years.

"Schools want them to boost pupil generated money except they don’t when they are small."

@TizerorFizz The main reason schools want a sixth form is to attract good teachers who want to teach A level as well as GCSE. Some teachers avoid 11-16 schools because they regard them as career- limiting.

But yes, small undersubscribed sixth forms are not sustainable. There have been closures in my area too, and the Government has made it more difficult for small schools to open sixth forms.

@inthisvehicleYes. I do understand the recruitment issue but teachers looking at a centuries old grammar vs a new free school with a tiny 6th form might prefer the grammar or a well established good 6th form which some secondaries do have. It’s not sustainable to have every school with a 6th form when there are already some decent choices. It’s an issue with the free schools that were established without true need. Although that’s another discussion!

The new TPD is not final salary anymore. And retirement age is 67, so 44 years working before can claim these days. Doctors pay 12.5% of salary into their pension so not free ! Teachers 9-12%.
New doctors and teachers are not well paid. Senior ones might be but things have changed a lot.
Teachers do not have time to be experts in all careers, that’s why we have a national careers service, which is free.

Absolutely. Doesn’t mean they are passionate about those jobs and loving life though necessarily. Many are tied into large mortgages and established lifestyles which are hard to give up, so they hang on on the treadmill.

@NW3Lady Doesn’t nearly everyone who makes a decent living? Most people cannot go and retreat from working life unless they inherit a shed load.

Of course. I was responding to the earlier observation that doctors don’t often leave their profession, just pointing out that that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re all happy and fulfilled working in medicine. There’s a lot more to it than that. You could be earning well but greatly dislike your work and feel trapped. The statistics don’t show this.

Arguably the more you earn and the more you’ve invested in your training and getting to where you are (not just financially), perhaps the harder it is to change career. Yet I’ve not got any data to support this.

Easy subjects for your child which will get them into their chosen course at University.

For example, some courses require a science subject or a grade A in mathematics.

If there wasn’t any requirement I’d do the easiest subjects for your child whether it be a BTEC in business or A level in Media studies

@NW3Lady I think a lot of things are said about medicine to back up pay claims and industrial action.

@kenyaswhiterefrigerator Id be livid if dc are just told to do what appears easy. Why should anyone just do enough for a low tariff degree? It’s poor advice and isn’t aiming high enough for the better universities and definitely not for the elite ones. Cambridge for example, specifically says they don’t think media studies is suitable prep for any of their social science or humanities courses. Not that everyone ss for Cambridge but these courses at the best universities do require academic A levels that are the equivalent of maths. Just because some people don’t value humanities it doesn’t mean teachers should advise dc to do easy courses at A level because this narrows university choice and often career afterwards.

My son's doing A levels. What we have found is generally children are best choosing subjects they enjoy and are good at taking into account courses and universities they are likely to be interested in.

No point worrying about what Cambridge recommend if no interest or ability to get in there.

My son knows a fair few older friends struggling to get into their university and course of choice after choosing subjects like maths and physics only to see other children getting onto these courses with BTEC's and so called soft A levels.

I'm not sure any A level is easy.

@Emyj15 I didn’t say that dc would apply there but they do a great guide to the best A levels to take for academic courses. They are not the only university offering these and any dc aiming high should look at what they recommend because very selective courses elsewhere would want exactly the same. Your post is assuming dc just want an average course at an average university. For the most competitive courses, start with the Cambridge advice and then adjust for possible university and course. The whole point is making sure dc get the best advice for their aspirations or indeed raising aspiration. Eg if you want to go to Lse, Imperial, St Andrews, Durham etc why not read what Cambridge advises? Takes 2 minutes! Teachers should be inspiring the best dc to aim high and that means taking the right subjects to get dc there.

Their guide is great for trying to get in there and similar universities but not so great for those not looking at these universities.

Cambridge don't like Business and BTEC for example but business is on the preferred list for a fair few RG and equivalent universities and many are happy with BTEC's.

20-30% of my son's maths year are being advised not to to carry on into year 13 as they are likely to fail despite the minimum grade to do maths being a 7.

My point is look at the requirements of the courses and Universities of interest taking into account the potential ability of the child and what they enjoy.

No point children averaging 6-7 at GCSE looking at what Cambridge and the likes of LSE want when they have little chance of getting onto many of not all of their courses.

My point mainly is that a fair few children my son knows wish they had taken other A levels or BTEC's rather than done subjects that are seen as more academic which they didn't need to do and haven't really enjoyed.

Therefore children may want to consider what they enjoy and are good at rather than what elite universities like especially if not averaging 7-9 at GCSE which the vast majority won't be

This is a fascinating thread, particularly for someone who didn't go through the English school and university system but has children going through it.

It mainly underlines what feels to me the insanity of expecting children to make choices aged 16 that will massively narrow and define their career options, based on their interests and maturity at 16. The English system goes so narrow so early and feels like it traps kids into certain paths at that point - necessitating conversations like this one.

Many apologies for not naming the person who called me ‘a bit glib’ but I don’t go there.

I am a long standing 6th form teacher and Tutor ( 30 Years)

I also have two children who have recently taken A levels and understand how different the UCAS system is compared to UCCA/PCAS

There’s no interviews or interest in your personal statement or classifying which subjects are ‘harder’ unless you are an Oxbridge candidate or certain London University's

Mostly it’s a computer checking your predicted grades. It doesn’t matter about the subject unless there are specific course requirements

So I remain glib.

I don’t mind if you don’t name me (if it was me you meant – it was a different poster I referenced) but I felt that it was the comment from them (or you if you've namechanged) that was glib, not the poster.

I still think it is an oversimplification (which is what glib can mean) to say that most unis offer ABB (I mean lots ask for AAA or higher, and plenty ask for BBB or lower) and also to say that the majority of courses do not specify A level subjects. Yes lots don’t. But the majority? I haven’t tallied it up but certainly plenty of courses, especially some of the more sought-after ones, do specify subjects or at least one subject.

I was a secondary teacher and tutor GCSE and A level. I have two DC who have gone through the UCAS process. I don’t think that makes me an expert, though I do know quite a bit about some aspects of education. I was offering what I hoped was a helpful post to what has been a pretty interesting thread by and large.

@Emyj15 There’s a strong argument that someone getting 6 at GCSE isn’t A level material. I know what Business Studies A level looks like and it’s not maths equivalent! If dc are getting a 6, they aren’t very academic and they probably won’t be going to the more elite end of RG or Bath or St Andrews.

The dc who go to many RG universities do have better GCSE grades though and they should be advised which A levels are considered academic. Why anyone should push business studies to a 16 year old with 8/9s at GCSE is beyond me. It’s just wrong.

It’s also far too easy to suggest all RGs are equal and all degrees in a subject are equal. Just because someone can do law at Gloucester doesn’t make it equal to law at Bristol. Therefore A levels that make a student suitably prepped for Bristol will be different and more challenging. This is info teachers/careers need to impart.

90%+ children aren't getting 8-9's at GCSE.

These are mainly got by children at private, Grammar and outstanding state schools which the majority of children are locked out of.

Plenty of children will go on to do well in life from so called lower RG university and mid tier universities.

The idea that only children who get mainly 8-9's should do A level's or go to university is a bit elitist to me.

I'm not seeing anyone suggesting children getting 8-9's should be encouraged to do Business A level.

As for maths, my point is lots of children are encouraged to take maths when it probably isn't suitable but because they and their parents have bought into the idea that only so called traditional A levels are worth doing they end up taking it rather than choosing a more suitable subject.

As said before in my opinion is children should take subjects they enjoy and are good at taking into account the type of course and university they are looking to go to.

No point worrying too much about so called academic A levels if looking at universities like Surrey, Reading etc.

It's a bit different if looking at the highest ranking universities but most aren't.

@Emyj15 "Plenty of children will go on to do well in life from so called lower RG university and mid tier universities."

Many will, but "plenty" unfortunately won't. The word plenty implies that enough of them are doing well to justify their long term debt (which is funded by the taxpayer if it isn't paid off by the student). The stats over recent years have convinced the Government that they aren't. That's why they are strategically de-funding HE courses that they consider low value and strategically funding courses that they consider high value.

This thread has been about moving towards "plenty" by making sure students heading into sixth form and university are choosing subjects that are more likely to get them onto the high value courses. They definitely don't need 8/9s or top A levels for that, but they do need to be considering vocational pathways such as nursing or engineering or computing or teaching rather than, say English Literature or History. If they study something like Geography at a mid tier uni, they should be looking at choosing modules wisely to maximise employability, e.g. there are good jobs for grads who are experienced with Geographical Information Systems (GIS) or Town Planning, or Surveying.

Business Studies GCSE or A Level can be a good option for self starters who might be inclined towards starting or running a business in future or having a side hustle alongside their main job. That includes students who go straight into a job at 18 and work their way up to managerial level.

they do need to be considering vocational pathways such as nursing or engineering or computing or teaching rather than, say English Literature or History.

But an English literature or history degree is a pathway to teaching. What do you think the usual pathway to secondary teaching is?

As for maths, my point is lots of children are encouraged to take maths when it probably isn't suitable but because they and their parents have bought into the idea that only so called traditional A levels are worth doing they end up taking it rather than choosing a more suitable subject.

Absolutely, @Emyj15 . This is why I have my yearly thread about not taking maths with below a 7 and being aware that taking it with a 7 usually leads to grades D/E at A-level. The amount of kids I have taught whose ‘parents said I should take maths because it’s a really good A-level’, and whose parents won’t be told that they should drop it, with poor outcomes is what has lead to those threads. They would have been better off doing something else.

If they want to teach those subjects at secondary school then of course they will need to study them at uni - that's obvious - I should have been clearer, but I meant Education more generally, to include primary teaching, SEN teaching, Early Years etc.

But if they are studying Eng Lit or History at a mid tier uni because someone told them most employers don't care about what degree they have, and they should therefore just do what they want, then they were given out of date advice.

Core Maths is a great alternative to A Level in those circumstances: https://amsp.org.uk/universities/post-16-specifications/core-maths/