If you're a teacher who advises students on their A Level options ...

[inthisvehicle]

... which of these factors influence your advice, and in what order?:
1.The student's stated interests or career aspiration (and your confidence in their ability to reach their goals).
2.The student's predicted KS4 grades?
3.Attracting good students to your own subject area? (Please say what that is).
4.The school's need to fill up undersubscribed courses.
5.The school's aspiration to retain students that might otherwise go to college or elsewhere.
6.The Office for Students' guidance to HE institutions on its strategic priorities, and their categorisation of some courses as low value.
7.Trends in the graduate job market which show that some courses are more likely to lead to "graduate-level" jobs than others.

Fwiw, my personal experience as a parent (which might not be typical) is that 1-5 are all influential but that not all teachers have visibility of or interest in 6 or 7. As a consequence, they advise based on their own past experience of university, which can be out of date.

@inthisvehicle I am so curious; what is your profession? You seem to know so much so either you're a career/education counsellor or you have spent loads of time on doing research.

I have one question for you. Even if you see to abilities and interests shouldn't we also reflect on the personnality traits of the student? Someone who's autistic can be brilliant but will not necessarily be a good psychologist. Someone who is extremely shy and introverted might not thrive in an environment where communication is key.

My DS2 likes English, Maths, Arts and MFL (French) and has got excellent grades. He doesn't particularly like Physics, Science, History and Geography but his grades are fine because he works hard.
He's got no idea what he wants to do but he's analytical, creative and is outgoing. On the minus side he's very sensitive so I can't see him being a doctor (ex) even though I know he would be able to do the theoretical part of it.
Just out of curiosity ; what would you suggest?

@arcticpandas I'm an IT Professional, in an analytical role. I currently work in the HE sector, but my role is common to most sectors. It's a role that didn't exist when I was at school. I did a science degree, learned to code in one module (which I enjoyed), got my first graduate job in software development, then evolved from there. It's been a winding road, but it's suited me.

I'm also a parent and a school governor.

I think it's worth you thinking about why he doesn't particularly like Physics, Science, History and Geography. They're all interesting, but sometimes indifferent teaching can be offputting. It's really common for students to choose subjects based on which teachers they like or don't like. I know I did. But a change of school at sixth form might make a difference.

If not, then Maths & MFL are a really solid combo. He could look at professions like Data Science, which is an area that the Government has been investing in.

Might he consider Computer Science? It goes well with maths.

Thank you @inthisvehicle . I will look into this. I'm impressed by your knowledge on the subject and it's very nice of you to share here..

@arcticpandas Economics is another subject that is complementary to maths. Both my DCs did it at A Level alongside maths, though in both cases it was a toss-up between that and MFL. My eldest ended up doing Economics at uni. My DC2 was less keen on it - some days he would come home saying it was "really dull", but on other days, when there was a big economic news story that interested him (usually related to Donald Trump) he would say something like "economics should be a compulsory subject for everyone!", so he appreciated the knowledge it gave him. He'll be doing an engineering degree, but I know the Economics has given him a good grounding for understanding the world around him, just as his humanities GCSEs did. They're all useful in their own way.

@inthisvehicle this is a good resource: https://ddat-capability-framework.service.gov.uk/

My job role is one of the roles in the left hand menu. Unless you work in IT you might not have heard of many of the roles listed, but they are all needed to build and maintain the digital systems that underpin our modern lives. Some or all of these roles exist in every medium and large company, organisation, or Government department, so they are very transferrable skills.

The naive stereotype of computing graduates as "coders" is analogous to the developer or engineer roles in the list. However, the engineers are not simply "writing code" they are applying their analytical skills to develop and maintain systems.

Some of the roles are very accessible to people without a coding background - many colleagues in my IT department started as administrators who were front-line users of business systems, but then developed interest and skills in system development and maintenance. However all the roles need to communicate with each other clearly and unambiguously, so the best developers/engineers have an interest in and understanding of business requirements, and the best business relationship managers have an interest in and understanding of system architecture and development lifecycles.

@inthisvehicleLots of high quality engineering degrees have very transferable skills. However the top ones like physics and maths. FM for some too. Someone who doesn’t like physics as mentioned below might not be the best fit. I agree that coding is a narrow focus. Useful of course but broader skills are better.

Parents, teachers and some (in my experience) careers advisors tend to be very aware of traditional professional roles like doctor, dentist, teacher, engineer, accountant, lawyer, but have much less awareness of modern professional roles like the ones listed in the link above. Graduates, apprentices and school leavers in entry-level jobs do still evolve into these career paths, but if they knew about them sooner they could evolve faster.

Not many of my colleagues have physics and maths backgrounds. I do, and it is an advantage, but it's an aptitude advantage rather than a CV advantage. It definitely helped me into my first graduate job with an IT consultancy, but nobody cares about it now (unless they have a similar background and want to bond over a conversation about physics 😁). For second and subsequent jobs, employers only care about the professional skills and experience you've built up.

You have a wealth of knowledge and understanding OP, but you overestimate what teachers are able to do. Most of us are juggling/struggling with teaching students from 11-18 in our chosen subject - we’re rarely just exam teachers and we don’t have the time to become career experts too.

I am a 1 and 2 teacher (English and Media). I have no interest in directing students on to undersubscribed courses - but equally I cannot know/ research which universities want which combinations leading to which careers.

I feel that the information is just as available to the student and their parents via the wonders of the internet as me. And they can build up a much more personalised information bank.

If you are arguing more a much more highly skilled Careers Service, I am totally with you. It is the Cinderella of schools and too often staffed by poor calibre staff. That should be your crusade, not expecting teachers, yet again, to fill the gaps.

Parents and teachers …yes. There’s a lot of research to support this.
However, you are letting your very limited experience of careers advisers influence your opinion of a whole profession. Which is a shame especially as so much of the information you have been sharing has been researched, compiled and disseminated by careers professionals.

There is some really excellent and exciting work currently been done on AI - looking it its impact on the future labour market, supporting young people and students on how to use it effectively in their career development and training teachers, academics and employers - all led by by careers advisers.

Careers guidance in schools should be underpinned by The Gatsby Benchmarks. Benchmark 2 is focused on labour market information and I could signpost you to dozens of wonderful examples of schools looking beyond traditional jobs.

Schools who pay their careers staff a fair wage get high calibre staff. A decent wage will attract staff qualified up to masters level.

Schools that pay peanuts will only attract unqualified staff or those with L2/4 quals. This means they fall short of the statutory requirements on career guidance and are doing their students a disservice.

Universities pay careers consultants the same as a lecturer which makes it a far more attractive proposition.

"you overestimate what teachers are able to do. Most of us are juggling/struggling with teaching students from 11-18 in our chosen subject"

I'm a school governor, so very aware of the pressures that teachers are under and would never suggest that they have a "duty" to know about this stuff and teach about it. I probably get as frustrated as you do when there are headlines about things that "should" be taught in schools, and can appreciate how it makes teachers feel defensive. Nevertheless, most teachers that I know will generously share the knowledge that they do have, whether that be knowledge of their subjects or the wider world. The fact that you're here reading this thread means you might pick up some knowledge that you might one day choose to share. But if not, then so be it. I have no "crusade" or wider agenda beyond this thread.

I'm a school governor, so very aware of the pressures that teachers are under and would never suggest that they have a "duty" to know about this stuff and teach about it

So you're backtracking on your earlier comments about education being everyone's responsibility then?

Not all all. It's a moral responsibility, not a professional one, so individuals can choose to take it or leave it.

Wow.

It is not a teacher's moral responsibility to provide expert careers advice to pupils.

Get a grip of yourself. Set up a helpful website for Y11s to google. Don't you dare tell me that it's a moral failing if I concentrate on my actual job instead of trying to do everyone else's for them.

I said it was everyone's responsibility, not just teachers. The phrase "education is everyone's responsibility" is a widely used phrase in the context of shared accountability by everyone in society.

But you used it specifically in a response to a query about whether teachers should be expected to deliver expert careers advice. Which you have now declared a moral responsibility.

And I am pretty worried that you are a school governor. Make sure your school gets in good careers advisers and stop dumping on teachers.

Yes, I did, because it was relevant to the context.

You are feeling defensive, and therefore going on the attack. Time to check out maybe?

That’s an unfair response @inthisvehicle
@noblegiraffehas only repeated what you said.
You’ve given some excellent information on this thread but you don’t seem willing to take on any of the points others have made. Instead you respond in a very patronising manner.

I would argue that it’s a moral responsibility, as a teacher, not to offer half arsed advice in an area where I am not an expert ie future careers, job markets and university courses. My expertise is in teaching my subject and any research time I have should be spent on that.

It's nothing to do with feeling defensive, but feeling utterly fed up with people not in the job telling us how to do our jobs and now suggesting that we have a moral obligation to take on even more work that isn't our responsibility.

You're just the latest in a long line.

When should I provide this expert careers advice ? While teaching A Level content, in my lunch break (when I’m v often doing a duty) or after school when I need to mark and plan ? Where in my day should this be done ? Or should we leave it up to the qualified careers advisor that every state school has access to. I do provide advice for medics and vets but that’s because I get dedicated time to do it - I know nothing about law, history or engineering so why would I give advice ? Moral duty ? Anything else you’d like us to be experts in - parenting maybe ?

So true. I know of several people with really plum jobs in medicine and not one of them has encouraged their children into the profession. Just because doctors don’t tend to leave their jobs doesn’t necessarily mean they’re happy with them. They reach a point in life where they’ve made commitments which make it difficult to leave.

Doctors are not well paid. 22% pay cut in last 8 years. No one goes into medicine for the money in this country (£100,000 debt and starting salary of £36,616 after 5-6 years).

Careers advice is a team effort, from parents, teachers who have experience/training/time to give it, careers advisors.

It was in the context of being a school governor that I added 4 and 5 to the list in my original post, because I know they are important to school leadership teams. In particular, I started the thread after conversations related to point 5, "the school's aspiration to retain students that might otherwise go to college or elsewhere." Sometimes subjects are added to a sixth form curriculum just because they will be attractive and easy to resource, rather than because they provide a solid pathway for future progression.