Why dont all kids do the 11+ like they apparently did 40/50 years ago?

[PinkChaires]

I am not from the UK and so i had no idea what a grammar school was when it came time for my dds to go to high school. By the time i found out it was two weeks before the test and apparently they had no chance at passing without tutoring ( trafford). Surely this disadvantages some kids? Kids who are smart but just simply do not have the opportunity to sit the test?

Not all children sit it if it is unlikely they will pass. Yes most are heavily tutored so poorer children are disadvantaged.

Grammar schools were abolished in most of the uk about 40 years ago.

But could it not be like sats but opt in or out?

Oh really? I didn't realise

In the sixties the grammar system was throughout. However some middle class families had dyslexic children or ones that didn't pass the 11 plus so they go complainef so in the late 70s the government planned to change all schools to comprehensives. However for some reason some grammar schools were allowed to stay. So it depends where you live. Private schools don't have the 11plus but they have a variety of entrance exams

It disadvantages a variety of children. I grew up in a grammar school area and sat the 11+ almost 40 years ago and it was massively unfair then, too. My children live in an area with no grammar schools at all, and I much prefer the comprehensive system which is giving my children a better education than I got from my grammar school, with a lot less stress.

Where I used to live in Bucks it was all grammar schools and secondary modern schools. Everyone sat the 11+ at school unless they had severe SEN. Nobody I knew had any tutoring.

Now I live in a different part of the UK where there are no grammar schools and nobody sits the 11+.

There aren’t many state grammar schools left after several Labour governments through the 40s-80s put pressure on local authorities to abolish selection at age 11. Some local authorities didn’t go along with it and so they still have selective grammar schools. I believe Labour have decided to stop fighting grammar schools now although I am not sure new ones are allowed. The argument was that anyone from any social background to get a place and so they offered poor bright children the chance of an academic education and pathway to university. But even in the 70s and 80s we spent a lot of time in junior school practising 11 plus type questions and some people got tutors. But every child took the test. Competition for places is higher than ever because they get better academic results and there are fewer schools. I believe people move to Trafford just because of the grammar schools and some students commute in to the schools via train from surrounding counties. Fight for your child to take that test and ask teachers for past papers especially if your child is bright.

We're not in a grammar school area but the neighbouring county is. I have friends and family whose DC goes to grammar schools.

It's known that the only children who 'get in' have been tutored for a year or more. There are private tuition places around, and waiting lists exist. The summers are spent doing mock exams.

Despite the test being apparently adjusted for age so younger children aren't placed at an advantage, my nieces and nephews say that the majority of their fellow pupils in their forms have birthdays September to December.

This question comes as a friends dd got in this year,after being tutored from year 3! And this was especially for the exams. I was the one to tell her about the system actually

@PinkChaires wow, 3 years tuituon seems like such a long time! You'd think that would be detrimental, if the sole aim is to pass an exam to gain entry.

A couple of years ago the grammar were oversubscribed and not every child who reached the required standard was offered a place. That doesn't happen most years though.

Yes … and many are now fee paying. My parents couldn’t afford the fees for me and I couldn’t afford the fees for my DC

We're in London and most boroughs here don't have any grammar schools. The boroughs that have them are mostly in outer London, and they often have a distance criteria so there is no point sitting for it if you live in the inner boroughs, or even if you could, the journey would take too long (over an hour). In the inner boroughs there are selective exams for the independent schools and certain state schools with a few selective places - informally we talk about these as "the 11+" but the exams tend to be different, with more focus on English & Maths and less VR/NVR, plus there are group selection tests and interviews on top. Pretty much everyone doing any of the exams gets tutored, or attends a prep, or has a parent helping with as much input as a tutor would.

When most grammars were abolished by the Labour Government in 1974, some areas moved across to Comprehensive quite quickly.

Those areas who were slower to move across were granted a reprieve when the Conservatives then came into power, and didn't have to move across to Comps and could stay as Grammars.

Our local High school (used to be called a Comprehensive) in a non-Grammar area is heavily oversubscribed, as many families in the next County Grammar area who don't want to sit the 11 plus, or don't pass it, and don't want to send their DC to one of the old Secondary Moderns (that are now called High schools too) try to get into our local High as it gets better results than those High Schools in their County, that have the 11 plus. Often they don't get a place as admission is by distance, then siblings.

The grammar school system now officially only operates a compulsory 11 plus exam in Kent.

All of Kent has the grammar system and your child has to take the Kent Test at 11. You can opt out but it means you child will automatically fail and go to attend the local “ academy “

Most schools that are not grammar are academies. They are the old secondary moderns run by business companies for profit. A multi academy trust. They are mostly hideous and treat staff like fodder. More HR staff than teacher and support educators!

There are some grammars in London which have their own entry tests, but not set out like the council in Kent- just parental choice. Most schools are standard comprehensives in the UK. I think are a few in Birmingham as well and dotted around, but again, your choice as a parent or pupil to do the 11 plus.

So move to Kent if you want the grammar system for your child!

Hope that helps

Full list here- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

Well, my dd bucks the trend as she wasn't tutored. I bought some past papers and we did them together. And she passed.

All of Kent has the grammar system and your child has to take the Kent Test at 11. You can opt out but it means you child will automatically fail and go to attend the local “ academy “

This is a load of nonsense! You have to opt in, not opt out.

Same here. My children both passed with only some past papers done at home. Also both with birthdays several months after Christmas.

Where I live most seem to get tutoring to pass the test (some don’t of course but they’re the minority) and the grammar school is way more heavy on higher earning middle-class families, virtually no children on FSM etc etc. very different to the local comp. I think the idea was there with the grammar system but the ‘poor but bright children’ hasn’t really worked out. I do wonder whether could be ways to try and make the system fairer.

I actually went to grammar school but left in year 9 and I would not let my child go through that.
First the exam pressure to get in, then the pressure of being expected to perform at a certain level. The elitist attitude of staff, the lack of pastoral care and to care about grades and reputation of the school over pupil welfare The lifelong damage working under pressure at such a young age. The fact when I went to my state secondary I was more than a year ahead with the curriculum. And then the fact I still now have done better than many of my peers who stayed at grammar and the fact I know mental health issues were endemic there.

Just be thankful you had a lucky escape.

When the grammar school system was widespread across just about all areas it was normal for children to sit the 11+ and their results would determine whether they would go to the grammar school or to the local secondary modern school. This was the system when my mother was a schoolgirl. She went to the grammar school.

Now that there are far fewer grammar schools (most either closed or were turned into comprehensive schools during the 1960s and 1970s) the 11+ is much less common. Many areas have no grammar school system so no need to offer it.

I live in Essex. There are some grammar schools here, but not in every area by any means and commutes can be long.. If you do want to consider grammar school for your child then you can opt to enter them for 11+. It's an option in system so not automatic.

@UnimaginableWindBird * *It disadvantages a variety of children. I grew up in a grammar school area and sat the 11+ almost 40 years ago and it was massively unfair then, too

Can you explain why it is / was unfair because I'm not sure I understand why?

You are so Wrong sowrong it's unbelievable !

Buckinghamshire is wholly SELECTIVE, there are NO COMPREHENSIVE SCHOOLS IN BUCKS, ONLY GRAMMARS AND SECONDARIES. EVERY CHILD SITS THE 11+ here unless their parents withdraw them, which no one in my child's class did, even those with SEN.

Bucks is opt out, Kent is opt in.