Why dont all kids do the 11+ like they apparently did 40/50 years ago?

[PinkChaires]

I am not from the UK and so i had no idea what a grammar school was when it came time for my dds to go to high school. By the time i found out it was two weeks before the test and apparently they had no chance at passing without tutoring ( trafford). Surely this disadvantages some kids? Kids who are smart but just simply do not have the opportunity to sit the test?

That's not accurate in my experience. I know many summer born children who passed and attend grammar schools.

The statistics show the poorest children (on FSM) are extremely under represented at Gramnar schools.

Oh possibly - my Welsh aunt went to one but that was a long time ago in fairness (but I don’t think it was private) so I stand corrected on Wales!

There are three grammar schools in my area in Devon. One single sex bots and two for girls. I had one child go to grammar mainly as I wanted single sex schooling and one to local comp as she baulked ar a single sex school. We only had x tutor for 6 months to cover the maths which primary would not have covered in time and some actual exam practice for working at speed. I think the test dates are different now so not such an issue. Both my kids did well in their chosen settings but I think the outcome could have been very different for my eldest as the comp was shocking at the time she would have attended so I am pleased we had other options

I was born in 1956 and left school in 1974 after A levels. Leicestershire had comprehensive schools and I'd never heard of the 11 plus. I think might have done better academically under a grammar system, but I don't think it's a better system.

Wales did used to - my grandmother taught in a girls' grammar. But she retired in 1970.

My mother put me under such intense pressure to pass the 11+, started talking about how important it was, around 2 years before.

The nearer it got the pressure was ramped up and further bribes were offered, like a suede coat (quite ridiculous for a growing 11 year old and they were very expensive).

All I got was pressure, no help with studying for it and having a July birthday I was one of the youngest taking it.

It was a school in Sheffield called Notre Dame, vast amount of uniform and quite a long journey being bussed in. It was a single sex school.

I'm 100% convinced it was for her own perception of her social standing, not my education.

I wrecked her life by not passing and remember being dragged around with her, knocking on the girls doors who did pass and questioning them and their parents, I was embarrassed.

I only ever saw the scrapping of this exam to be a good thing.

It sounds like your local comprehensive schools aren't very good.

We have no grammar schools in our county, but do have some very good comprehensive schools who very much encourage academic attainment. DD's school has a 75% or so pass rate in 5 GCSEs including maths and English and the sixth form is in the top 10% in England.

Obviously, a lot of this is due to the demographic of the locality and pupils, but the school definitely celebrates academic achievement.

Competition for places is higher than ever because they get better academic results

Well of course they do because it is a grammar school who picks off the brainy children who will do well. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.💁

It's not really a "UK" thing. It's an England thing. I'm in Scotland and don't really know what a grammar school even is 😂 Or an 11+ for that matter.

My year was the last year who did the compulsory 11 plus in 1970 BTW.

Many many years ago, my mother passed her 11+ and I’m sure her 13+ she said, in her 80’s now.
But her family couldn’t afford the school uniform, so she couldn’t got to grammar school,

Grammar schools are not an England thing.

I live in a county with grammar schools. When my DH was at primary school (30 years ago) all of his class took the 11+. No tutoring. Some passed. Some didn't. He did go to grammar school but admits he struggled with it but his parents were very keen for him to go.

At my primary school (same area) it was optional, again no one was tutored. I only remember 2-3 children doing it, it certainly wasn't the norm. I didn't do it and went to the local state comp.

At my son's primary school now anyone who wants to do it is heavily tutored for a few years before the test. Tutoring can be expensive. Not sure we could afford it. But we are not planning on going down that route anyway.

The timing varied in different Local Authorities.

We have two grammar schools in my area - boys/girls. It's down to the parents to decide if they would like their children to take the 11+ exam. Yes, some children are tutored, and may pass, but passing the exam doesn't automatically equate to being offered a placement! It depends on the pass score your child achieved, the schools offer places to those children with the highest score. In effect your child may pass, but if other children score higher, your child is pushed further down the list. Years ago, most children took the 11+ exam, with only the brightest passing, tutoring would have been unheard of. Tutoring children to pass is all very well, but a child has to be bright enough to cope with the work load, and being pushed by teaching staff. Some children struggle, because actually, they aren't bright enough, to be in grammar. I didn't put my son in for the test, he's not stupid, but he's not bright enough for grammar. Entering him for the exam would have caused him nothing other than stress. Even if by a slim chance he passed, he'd never have coped with the work load. Some parents enter their child for the test, believing their child is brighter, than they really are. The child fails the test, and the parents who have decided their child IS going to grammar school are disappointed. As parents you have to be realistic. My son is at the local secondary school and is thriving, I made the best choice for him.

Well they're only a thing there in comparison to the rest of the UK

I left school 50 years ago and didn't take the 11+, depends on where you lived. It was all the new fangled comprehensive schools when I started senior school in 1971...

It is the main reason that people move to Trafford . Hence why house prices are dearer in certain areas of it . Im surprised it wasn't mentioned at primary school.
The other normal high schools in Trafford are good though (but maybe that's due to the competition of gramma schools )

They have them in northern Ireland

But not my area of England since the 70s. I was amazed to find out they still existed in a few places.

No point if you don't want to go to grammar school. Our nearest grammar is a train and then bus ride for my kids so it was a hard no from me. I want them to be able to walk to school and have local mates. Also our local states schools are good so no reason to.

@CaptainMyCaptain I passed the 11+ a few years later and was very aware of how unfair the system was and how crushing for those that didn't pass. The comprehensive system is obviously better although it does depend on funding and support for teachers. In Kent the grammar schools are filled with the DC of motivated parents many of whom have had private prep schools, tutoring or as per pps practice at home for the tests. The benefit of dedicated parents persists through school and is a part of the reason for good academic outcomes along with DC having good memories, aptitude etc. I can remember one parent saying to me that when his daughter passed the 11+ it was like being sent a cheque for £250000 in the post because he would otherwise have paid for her senior education. The combination of many of the brighter DC and those with wealthier parents being creamed off for grammar and private schools at 11 mean that the non grammar state schools can struggle and in Kent this is in many cases evident. The system is not good, we all know slightly immature 10 year olds who by 12 or 13 have found their feet academically. Why should the system favour those who already have the advantage of finding school easier or those with parents who are in a position to help them? If one lives in eg Kent and your child is near the top of their primary class and perhaps you have the time or the money to help them prepare for the exam it would be an unusual parent who didn't aim for the grammars as they are less risky . The system persists .

I don't see why grammar school areas are seen as so desirable. I live in area with no grammars and excellent comprehensives, which seems far better, and allows for multiple paths for children to take. All of my friends have sent their children to their local comprehensive, and their university destinations don't seem any different from kids in a grammar school area.

I’m afraid that’s just not true. Most private schools have extremely different tests from the grammar 11+. Private school entrance exams tend to be ‘traditional’ exams; English has comprehension with long answers and some creative writing, Maths has a number of marks available for method regardless of the answer. There may or may not be VR and/or NVR. The tests are usually written by the school. The grammar tests are usually GL tests or a similar provider- the schools can tailor them slightly in that they can ask for certain things to be assessed or for a certain level of difficulty in the English texts (eg QE has taken to asking for Shakespeare lately) but the school does not actually write them. They are multiple choice only and speed is one of the most important factors. They usually have VR and NVR too.

England has less grammar schooling than other parts of the UK.

You’ve literally just described the ISEB….

And read my post again, I said the CONTENT is the same. Whether you’re doing GL, in house, CEM or ISEB, if you do well at one you’ll do well all. If you mess up one you’ll mess up all.