Why dont all kids do the 11+ like they apparently did 40/50 years ago?

[PinkChaires]

I am not from the UK and so i had no idea what a grammar school was when it came time for my dds to go to high school. By the time i found out it was two weeks before the test and apparently they had no chance at passing without tutoring ( trafford). Surely this disadvantages some kids? Kids who are smart but just simply do not have the opportunity to sit the test?

The content of private school entrance exams is the same as the 11+, it’s also called the 11+ (or 13+) in the private system. All the revision materials you buy can be used for both tests.

There is very little discernible difference, other than that some privates will write their own papers (but many just use the same test) and all of them have interviews.

The state grammar system is an inexplicable anomaly which absolutely favours kids from richer backgrounds. Many parents pay thousands for tutoring (throughout their schooling not just to get in) while professing to be disadvantaged state school students compared to private, when to many extents and purposes it gets you a private education for free, as long as you can pay to do what you need to get in.

This is not true. The 11 plus test is not compulsory for every child in Kent. You have have to opt in and actively register for the test. It’s a choice, and many decide not to do it.

Most schools that are not grammar are comprehensives. Technically, they are "old secondary moderns" in the sense that that's the type of school they were 60 years ago, but they are now "comprehensive" schools, i.e. designed to teach children who would have passed out failed their 11+ exams at the right level.

The area where I live has no grammar schools,just comprehensives, and so the only children who don't go to the comprehensive schools are the ones whose families pay for them to go to a private school. The high achievers all do well, but there's a lot less stress, the children get to mix with a wider range of children and it's much better for children with spiky academic profiles who are good at some subjects but not others.

I definitely prefer the fully comprehensive system my children have to the full grammar/secondary moder school system I grew up with where the majority of children "failed" an exam at the age of 10 or 11 which made it much, much harder for them to get an academic education and where well off families skewed the odds in favour if their own children.

Lots of this is very stereotypical. I find the grammar school conversation very emotive. My secondary age children go to grammar school and they did not have any tutoring. On the flip side, they are academically capable but no more so that some of their primary class mates were.

What we did do was download old test papers and they practiced as and when they chose too. I could not afford a tutor and I personally don't believe in them as I wouldn't want my child to be taught to pass a test and then struggle in school.

In my daughters school, nearly half her form was tutored and they all struggle.

Edited to add that we live in a poor area.

One of my child's class has been tutored since Y2. They are a bright kid, no SEN so we are assuming it's for the grammar schools locally as the mum has spoken about how poor the secondary schools are locally. They aren't that bad, but this is a perfect first born, one and only and they can do no wrong at all.

@Janebigwither not true and you can't fail a test you haven't sat. If you don't sit the test then you can't apply for grammar.

40 years ago tutoring was very uncommon. I don't remember whether it was opt out or in when I sat it 34 years ago. I was in a one and a half form entry catholic primary school. 8 sat the test. To my knowledge none of us tutored.

Now tutoring is the norm here and I would say even very bright kids would struggle to pass without tuition in our area due to the speed required and the type of questions which aren't covered in primary school. Whilst most kids who pass will have had tuition, so will many who have not passed.

There was a bbc documentary a few years ago on the 11+ called "Grammar Schools: Who will get in?" Still some clips available. They followed four kids with differing backgrounds and circumstances.

I did the Bexley test almost 30 years ago... upon starting I discovered that I was one of the few to pass that had had no formal tutoring (and as a Bromley resident, I didn't need to sit the test). My dad had done the books with me though.

The 11+ needs either a parent who knows enough to find the correct past papers and identify any problems, or enough money to pay someone else to do it for them. In a way, the test weeds out children with parents who aren't interested enough or knowledgeable enough.

Parents wouldn’t have to pay for tutoring if the gov hadn’t got rid of so many grammar schools. Two of my DC go to them and have to travel to a neighbouring county, but they’re brilliant.

There’s not a single grammar in my county but there should be. There are comps that specialise in design, drama, etc etc. and that’s all a-ok apparently, but god forbid academic interest should be catered for. 🙄

It wasn't compulsory in Kent 30-odd years ago, because one of the school options in my village required that if you accepted a place at their (comp) school, then you mustn't take the 11-plus. They were up themselves though - had a fancy new uniform with expensive, single-shop beige cords which all the parents hated.

Mind you, tutoring wasn't a thing back then either.

My son had to do a test to get accepted into his school, but, it was more of a 'where is this child at' test than a 'you must be this good to enter' test as they have a wide range of students from a lot of different backgrounds, and it must be a nightmare getting everyone working at roughly the same level without the testing/streaming

There’s 2 in the county next to us. We didn’t consider DS sitting the 11+ as they’re both an hour away. Our catchment school is good, so he’ll be fine.

Our dentist’s youngest is the same age as DS. All 4 of his DC have passed the 11+ and been tutored for years.

It’s an interesting question. MIL is 72. She felt a failure as she failed the 11+.

There have been no Grammar Schools in my county since the 80s.

Grammar schools are still very much a thing throughout the U.K.? Scotland, England, Wales and in NI. In NI the primary schools prep the pupils for them if they wish to sit the exams.

Grammar schools are heavily discouraged by Labour Party policy for a huge number of reasons but mainly because they tend to benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. They are more popular in right-wing-leaning areas for much the same reason. They couldn't be legally fully abolished when they tried to in the 70s because the central government didn't have the power to make such a unilateral decision and individual Local Educational Authorities were able to choose to retain the old system if it was politically expedient.

It's not the Grammar School itself that is the problem but the fact that the majority that don't get in to the grammar are so much worse off because the other schools intrinsically have a higher percentage of more challenging pupils.

Do you have the capacity to move to a fully comprehensive area where there are no Grammar Schools?

Many grammar school are moving to a test that focuses solely on the curriculum taught in primary school ( therefore removing the verbal reasoning aspect of the test). This is to remove the need for tutoring and an attempt to make it fairer for disadvantaged children who can't afford a tutor.

NI and England aren’t comparable when it comes to grammar schooling, only 5% of children attend gramma schools in the latter whereas in NI it’s almost 45%.
Imo NI has a much more successful streamed education and it does mean families aren’t priced out as in England it just results in much more private schools.

I took the 11 plus in 1966. There was no tutoring everyone trooped into the Hall and did it. No fuss in my primary school but I believe some schools did practice tests. I passed and went to the Grammar School. Two years later my sister failed hers and went to the secondary modern where she was bullied and gained no qualifications. Even though she did O and A levels and got a degree after leaving school at 15 she is still affected by that feeling of failure (and somehow seems to blame me for the difference in our experience).

I think it is wrong to divide children at such a young age and much prefer the comprehensive system. The pressure and tutoring I read about on MN sounds awful. I don't know anyone who has done this in real life as there are no Grammars where I live now. My own child and my grandchildren have done well in the comprehensive system. Many schools are failing due to underfunding but that is a different issue.

@ObvANameChange

"The content of private school entrance exams is the same as the 11+, it’s also called the 11+ (or 13+) in the private system. All the revision materials you buy can be used for both tests.

There is very little discernible difference, other than that some privates will write their own papers (but many just use the same test) and all of them have interviews."

This is inaccurate.

Different private schools have different exam papers, as do different grammar areas. Some grammar areas only have reasoning papers (with no separate maths/english papers). You absolutely cannot use the same revision materials for all selective school entrance papers.

Some private schools have lengthy maths and English papers, plus separate written science papers, at 11. This is often not the case in the state grammar system. The 13+ papers are even more different, often covering many more subjects.

To say that there is "little discernible difference" is simply not true. As an example, the entrance exams to our more selective local private schools are far more challenging than the local state grammar 11+. They're not remotely comparable. Local private preps even have different preparation classes depending on which selective school the pupils are applying to.

It wouldn’t be fair to make all children sit a test that the vast majority would fail at age 11.

DS is at a Grammar school. He wasn’t tutored but I did do past papers with him which are easily available on Amazon.

Of course, his school has its positives and negatives. He is receiving an excellent education, gets support for his dyslexia that I doubt he’d get in a school with lots of children with much more severe SEN, there is little to no disruption in his lessons and the children just have a different air about them that is hard to put your finger on. On the other hand, he finds it hard to make friends in our village as he doesn’t go to the local school and I think because of the aforementioned ‘air’, he’s not into rugby or rowing but does enjoy cricket so there is not a lot of sport available to him and he would prefer a mixed sex school (although it was his choice to go to the grammar school).

@PinkChaires

Much of the UK doesn't have a grammar system as lots of them were abolished several decades ago.

There are only 163 selective grammar schools in England. There are others that were historically academically selective, are no longer, but have kept their "grammar" name (eg: Penistone Grammar in S Yorks, Prince Henry's Grammar in Otley).

I think being bright has often little to do with passing the 11 plus, especially for those kids who have been tutored to within an inch of their lives, from when they are very young, for years and years, all for that one day, all for that test.

My mum was the same. She was not a stupid woman, just failed the maths part, and went on to do A levels at night class, but not getting into grammar school made her feel inadequate her whole life.

No grammars by me, but plenty over the border on the wirral. I have friends whose kids went massively off the rails at grammars because they didn't h live up to the potential seem in their 11+. My ds is a bright kid in a v poor school. He has a (sometimes misplaced) confidence that he would not have if he were surrounded by lots of bright kids. And he really needs that confidence, otherwise he'd give up.

That was a big mistake. Grammar schools gave poorer kids an opportunity to better their lives.

Not in Wales. Unless you mean private schools with the word 'grammar' in the name?

That’s fair in terms of comparing NI v England - however, it was more in response to the “abolished” in U.K. comment which certainly isn’t the case.