Daughter hating year 7

[AllGonePeteTong1]

DD has been increasingly withdrawn the last few months. I had put it down to hormones but she broke down tonight and confided in me how much she hates her new secondary school. It's the local comp that is very well regarded, ofsted outstanding, well behaved kids in an affluent area. All her friends have gone to the school with her so all should be fine.

But things haven't been great from the start. She has found it incredibly strict, with detentions given out for the most minor offences (eg forgetting a book). She doesn't like a single one of her teachers because 'they're always shouting or tellling us off.'

She's also struggling a bit with the work, mainly because she says she finds it so boring (despite being a very engaged and good student at junior school). I also think the constant underlying stress she feels isn't conducive to learning. There is no bullying or anything like that - she's assured me on that.

I'm not sure what to do. She's started saying she doesn't want to go to school and even said she'd like to go to another one. She is adamant that I can't speak to her teachers about it and 'make a fuss'. She made me promise I wouldn't say anything.

Has anyone been in this situation and if so how did you handle in? Any teachers that can help advise on the right approach to take (potentially) with the school?

I hate seeing my previously happy, engaged girl so miserable 😞

I remember finding this interesting on radio 4 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00224jy
It's a book of the week and the programme isn't available but the book would be. Primary school is a much warmer environment but as pp have said that approach wouldn't work as well with teenagers.

I think while some people will just need more time to settle into secondary school some don't and will always struggle in that environment.

If that's the case for your DD and homeschool isn't the right option then I think the best you can do is teach her coping strategies. I think you want to be enthusiastic about the transition at first in case it is a positive thing for them but when it becomes apparent that it isn't you need a different approach.

What I'd go back and tell myself at that age is to keep my head down, avoid any attention and keep away from people who will get you into trouble. Focus on the work as best as you can.

As parents provide the nuturing environment that a big secondary can't and encourage her to learn and experience things outside of school that interest her.

@AllGonePeteTong1 my son is the same , loved junior school and says he would do anything to go back . Like your dd he says it's too strict and the teachers aren't nice 😩

Just to be clear, not all schools have this attitude towards discipline. Where my DDs went there was barely a detention ever.

@AllGonePeteTong1 Why are you worried about an all girls school? My DDs went to one. They escaped “silly” boy behaviour and found most girls were just fine. The schools completely understood the development of girls and they thrived in a supportive environment. Boys can be found other than at school! I would talk to DD if the girls school is a more relaxed and supportive environment.

Heads dictate ethos. No head of year will go against it. It’s how the school works and they won’t change to please your dd. Her confidence must be low and getting exam results below her sats achievements must be a worry too. It’s not always possible to stay close to primary friends with other influences at secondary and I feel for her re the netball. Same with dd at primary. She might find other things to be interested in at another school where the atmosphere is better. I really would go and look.,

Regarding the other school - at the time of choosing a secondary, DD wouldn't even go to the open day. She was adamant she wanted to go to the local secondary with all her friends; not a single sex school a bus ride away. Which we thought was fair enough.

We're going to talk to her tonight about speaking to her form tutor as the first port of call. If things don't improve, we can consider alternatives but it seems too early days to be pursuing that currently. Plus, the other school is even larger than her current one, so I've no idea if it'll be any different with regards to discipline.

Like another poster alluded to, her school is the type to do on-the-gate uniform inspections and dish out a detention for forgetting a ruler. I don't remember school being like this when I was there. I loved school and had a good relationship with the teachers. I certainly wasn't living in fear of a detention. It seems ridiculous and harmful to treat young people like would-be convicts.

So I think the question is this - is it senior school generally or is it this school?

If it’s this school then changing may help. However, if it is the transition and adjustment to senior school generally then another school won’t help at all and she will be back to where she started.

I think understanding this will help. It sounds like she is finding the transition difficult which is normal.

A small thing though, you mentioned that she joined netball which is great and said that all
her friends were chosen for matches except her despite her going to all of the training. So, she does have friends then?

Also, it’s senior school and selective teams. Full attendance doesn’t get you on the team. I hope you understand that and it was just worded poorly?

And your comment of living in fear of a detention. Sounds like a mixture of her wanting to do all the right things which is good but she just needs to do the right things and then there is nothing to worry about. Mindset is everything and I think you may need to address this.

There is a big difference in discipline, homework, expectations etc between primary and senior. Unfortunately I don’t think going to another will help and getting to the root problem of her time at senior school will help her in the long run.

I think she’s getting the education she deserves it’s just the setting in which that education is taking place that is the concern.

Your child doesn't sound very resilient to be honest. Upset she's not on a selective netball team "despite turning up every week" and "not doing well" on tests making her sad / less confident etc.

If she's only going to netball to get on the team, she needs to ask herself why she's going. She should be going to clubs because she enjoys playing netball - if she wants to be on the team, then she obviously needs to practice more - so weekends she can do drills and stuff. Get her to step up and work for that place on the team!

She did well at primary SATS because she'd been there 7 years, and they probably (like 99.9% of other primaries) did a fuck ton of practise and work towards them. No doubt dropping other parts of the wider education to get the results. But, someone obviously haven't taught your daughter how to prepare for tests, revise and manage expectations. Bear in mind, if the majority of kids are getting 90+% on class tests, then the tests are too easy. She should not be discouraged by 6/10 or whatever the score is - there should be a bell curve, it shows her where she needs to improve, what she does well at etc. They aren't there as a pat on the back. School isn't there to give out participation awards in the form of 10/10 on every class test...

Help her build her resilience and teach her how to achieve things, by going beyond just "turning up" and "being good".

I agree. Imagine going to work every day and your every move was under detailed scrutiny and a tiny error like forgetting a book incurred punishment. It would be hell.
The response from the tutor is simply not good enough.
I would look elsewhere ... get her out before her confidence plummets further.
If she was a naughty child and giving the teachers trouble then I would agree she has to suck it up a bit, but this is a normal well behaved child who is feeling crushed. You cannot have that.
As for teachers shouting ... how dare they be so rude ... they would not do that to an adult.
I have seen 3 DDs through secondary schools and now a GD who has just started. She is thriving and lapping up the new opportunities. There are some teachers she likes less than others but that will happen anywhere.
This school is a bad fit for your Dd and I am sorry you have this worry.
Make sure she knows you understand. Take her to see the other school and let her have something to compare.

And if I hear that bloody word resilient once more I might scream.
Have a bit of humanity for goodness sake.
We are not taming lions ... education is there to bring out the best in each child not to crush them.

She's started saying she doesn't want to go to school and even said she'd like to go to another one. She is adamant that I can't speak to her teachers about it and 'make a fuss'.

Can’t have it both ways. You can hardly stop going to school without engaging with the teachers to sort out problems.
Year 7 is a steep learning curve and sets the stall out for future study. It is hard when kids have been in the more nurturing environment of primary. But they get used to what is expected of them and soon fall into routine. By year 8 they won’t be forgetting books and getting in trouble.

Ok having been through it in Primary School and a little bit High School you do kind of have to make a fuss.

Talk to the school see what can be done and if they are rigid and say nothing then you do have to move on

for example DS won’t get a detention for being late if it is due to anxiety - if he (like this morning) struggles to get in on time he will go in when ready). It is down as unauthorised yes but that is my thing to sort not his - what he won’t get is a detention

then with the tests maybe look at some tutoring or online practice she can do to get herself more confident

netball tram that she will have to cope with maybe try something else

I think quite a high degree of strictness is likely justified in secondary school from the start, because a lot of kids will shortly be entering a very rebellious phase (or be there already) and if the school doesn't take preemptive action on that it really does make the environment intolerable. Some kids can be really awful and I think it's much better to be in a school that controls that rather than one which lets them run amok.

She's only been there just over a term so still getting used to the rules and also to new friendships etc. Once she's got the hang of both of these I would think things would hopefully settle down for her.

On the one hand I can understand why schools need to be strict...but for many kids who are generally well behaved and do what they're told, all this strict environment does is make them dislike and resent school.

It's very sad...my ds loved primary school and was looking forward to secondary but the strictness made him hate it by the end. He is well behaved, so it ended up with him feeling like he was constantly being watched for any tiny mistake. It creates a really negative atmosphere and relationship between schools and pupils imo.

Unfortunately this is happening in more and more schools.

I agree. My son is in year 7 and yes its strict, but I wish it was stricter. I am appalled at what appears to be the constant low level of bullying that goes on at the school. Some children have aspects about them that make them a target for bullies, so yes, having a safe school environment is a priority.

To be blunt, we live in a society where respect for authority has all but disappeared and teenage kids are at the stage where they are jockeying for dominance and position over each other, and looking to rebel and challenge authority figures. I don't think secondary schools have much choice but to be strict. Teachers are after all outnumbered, and if they lose authority over a class its almost impossible to get it back. I don't think shouting is the way to do this though, in fact, I think if a teacher relies on shouting they have already lost authority.

I think teachers know that this level of discipline and scrutiny is not good - it is, I am sure, not what they want to be doing. And yet, as a society we go on creating these vast monolithic institutions where children are swamped and crushed.

This is why the home education movement is gaining traction. Parents are saying no to this sausage factory approach, and quite right too.

So many children are totally put off school and education by these things and are lost to the system - become stroppy and rebellious or crushed and mentally ill (an epidemic among the young at present).

Some secondary schools manage to be human scale and humane. Maybe OfSted should be judging schools on these criteria rather than policies and test results.

Don't blame the child for the faults in the system.

I think there is a difference between disciplining behaviour and the arbitrary rules regarding going to the toilet/uniform/forgetting stuff.

talking back to the teacher/saying mean things yes

forgetting your pencil case just give them a pen for god sake - people forget stuff creating an environment of fear for doing these things is not on
uniform - so what if by the end it isn’t perfect who cares if they want to wear tights and socks is it really that big a deal

Exactly - it feels like control for control's sake with no real purpose.

By all means be strict on proper behaviour and good manners, but creating permanent minute by minute fear of making a small mistake - there is no justification for that at all and it simply creates a cavalier and rebellious attitude to all the rules - even the ones that make sense, the important ones. Or else it crushes the spirit. How can we go on supporting all this?

Year 7 is such a shock to the system for many kids.
Your DD sounds like she is struggling with the mental resilience in being in such a strict environment.
You and she have choices - one would be to stick it out for a bit, have lots of chats at home - agree it sucks, but find ways to cope. Making sure she leaves the house in full and compliant uniform, not chatting in class etc, checking her bag before she leaves to make sure she has everything. These are basic requirements and even more relaxed schools will punish some of them
Not getting the grades she wants? Try a bit harder, ask questions in class if you don't understand (this is hard but gets easier)
Not getting picked for netball? There may just be other girls who are better, it's a popular sport and lots of girls want to play. Try something else?
My DD found the majority of high school a grind (she's autistic) but years 7&8 particularly hard. Kids are all at different stages of maturity and it really shows.
Make sure she's doing activities outside school that makes her happy and she's good at so her confidence in herself is restored.
But look at other options - if she's unhappy and you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's not worth being miserable, try another school.

The all girls school may have lighter discipline than the mixed one. I think boys often need more discipline than girls to keep up with things, but they obviously have to discipline them the same way. There may be less disruption during lessons as well, and the teachers may not resort to shouting as much etc. So it could be a better fit for your more sensitive girl. No harm in looking more into the school now and maybe asking current parents (if you know any) about what the school is like.

She doesn't like a single one of her teachers because 'they're always shouting or tellling us off'

This really jumped out at me. One of our DC's schools is very strict (daily uniform inspections on the gate, detentions given for forgetting stationery), however the teachers are also warm and the children know they care about them. The school is very strict but it is also kind.

My DD did worry a lot in Year 7 that she would accidentally break a rule, but this has faded with time. It is not ideal. The children for whom the strict rules are there to contain don't care if they get warnings, removes or detentions. The children who would have done well anyway have an extra level of stress that they don't need. However, I can understand why the school have gone down this route.

Do you have parents' evening coming up or any other opportunities to speak individually to her class teachers? I don't think you'll be successful in changing the ethos of the school, but if you mention how dispirited she's feeling to her individual teachers they may show her a bit more warmth. It's early days for them too with all the new Year 7s to remember!

There is clearly an issue with primary school to secondary school transition in this country. It shouldn't be a traumatic shock to the system for many kids. It should be gently built up to and children should be supported to thrive in their new school environment.

OP, go and look at the all girls school. Maybe your DD could do a trial morning there. It may be an unpopular thing to say, but remove the boys' behavioural issues and I think you do get an environment where the teachers can be more relaxed. Not because girls don't ever behave badly or have issues, but it does change the atmosphere and it may be that this atmosphere will suit your DD better.

@AllGonePeteTong1 Although dc often want to go to a secondary with friends, they aren’t the adults in this situation.

As you can see on this thread, teachers are now, more and more, seeing draconian discipline as being vital but not giving any concern to what damage it might do. Dc have come from, usually, kind teachers in primary schools and then find themselves faced with sergeant majors. I’m pretty old now, but at a recent school reunion the men talked about their hatred of the boys PE teacher. Nasty ex army and they recalled experiences that made them despise him 50 years on! Any decent teacher should worry about the effect this style of discipline has on some dc. Any decent adult knows this. So in effect you have a school attracting teachers who simply don’t care about your DD. Or possibly many DC who feel the same.

It’s also very difficult to spot these schools unless you know other parents. Some love these schools but others will have dc who are just existing in them. So can you find other parents with DC at the girls’ school? Are they a happy bunch?

I have also found posters saying the DD should toughen up a bit annoying. It is dispiriting to never be good enough. Sport for all ends up being sport for winning. Additionally,,Dc have different personalities. They are not all happy seeing other dc punished all the time for negligible misdemeanours. It does make some dc anxious. My DDs would have been vocal so might have been in serous trouble! Many Dc appreciate fairness. They like a calm atmosphere with some humour and warmth. Where that is absent, it’s hard to be happy. So assessing the ethos of an alternative school is now vital, in my view.

IMO you need to look to move schools before your DD becomes a school refuser. Different children deal with schools differently, some prefer an authoritarian environment whereas for others it can destroy them. Listen to what she's saying and go to view alternate school.

Resilience is important. If she can't handle getting 6 /10 on a test, she's been failed. But being given tests that are too easy, giving her no ability to understand that she might need to improve in certain areas and how to do that.

She needs to learn to use the information, rather than lose all confidence. She needs to be more resilient in the face of failure.

Kids should be taught this from early on, if at first we don't succeed and all that. Otherwise we end up with young people who can't comprehend why they aren't in teams and then think "what's the point".