Kingsdale Foundation School

[WhatILoved]

What's so great about this school? I'm navigating choices and have been to visit this one we and others in the area. It is massively over subscribed and people really want their kids to go there. It feels huge. If I'm honest I didn't get a real feeling for it, probably hampered by fact I could only visit in a Saturday whilst other schools I've seen in action during the week. However whenever I ask local parents of older children there if they recommend it I very rarely get outstanding recommendations for it. I've had at worse "don't even think about sending your child there!" And at best " yes my kids have done really well but it's not all that"
I'd love to know therefore why it has waiting lists that go to infinity.

But I think it's a myth that they offer a broader education than other local schools. Norwood is an arts specialist school, FHB performing arts, Sydenham I think stem but with a brilliant arts offer and are national debating champions. I am not so sure about the Harris schools but they would certainly talk about a broad offer. Which schools don't have high expectations locally? They all have libraries! Kingsdale just have a better marketing department.

I don't think anyone serious about inclusive education is talking about a full lottery system. We have friends who live on the estate next to Kingsdale, literally the other side of the wall. If it's not ideology to say their kid can't go to the school he can see from his window, I don't know what is.

There's also longstanding local beef because there's been a huge gap in secondary provision for boys especially in Penge and surrounding areas up and around the edge of CP park. Kingsdale's policy means those children have had to travel a long way to school. Harris (of which I am not a fan either) have at least plugged some of that gap on the Bromley side.

Everything I was going to say has been mentioned already: the banding tests which ensures you knock out lots of kids even at the application stage; the insanely high proportion of high prior attainers (almost two thirds of the cohort vs 20-25% in an average comp), which means their results should be exceptional; the mediocre progress 8 (value added) score which has been underwhelming and mostly negative for years; the BS scholarship system (they are not alone in this in south london) and of course the hype around it, driven partly by the lottery system and the scholarships and the sense that you "win" or "earn" a place there.

There's also the school bus, which costs close to £1000 per year and ships kids in from across south east london (not sure about elsewhere): this is a great option, if you have a spare £1000 a year per child, many do not and again this will rule in some children and rule out others.

I know of children in years 9-11 whose parents are underwhelmed. I'm sure this is the case everywhere, of course. It's probably a perfectly fine comp with some great clubs and provision in arts etc, which you would expect in a school that size.

And yes progress 8 DOES matter, for high attaining kids as for everyone else. There are many great schools, grammars and comps, which do brilliantly by high attainers (and for comps - also middle, low, disadvantaged cohorts). It's simply not the case that a P8 score will be low because the kids are already doing well on entry. It's not the only thing that matters - but if you are going to fixate on the results it makes no sense to ignore the P8 score.

Sydenham Girls, where both my daughters ended up. has a fabulous library, as does FH Boys - it is not that all the other local schools are cultural deserts. Syd has brilliant dance and art though has had a bit of a musical blip (hence DD2's move to a specialist school), but I'm sure it will be sorted for the new Year 7.

My friend's son should have got a brilliant GCSE in music - a Kingsdale full scholar with a bright future. He got a 7 - the same as my DD1 who finds music dull and had no teacher for a year of the course at Sydenham, which makes no song and dance about music.

Sixth form isn't guaranteed even for Kingsdale students - they cherrypick again locally. Given their very high selection criteria at that stage I think the results should be better.

The library at FH Boys is brilliant. They used to have an award winning librarian although sadly she has now gone (retired I think). There are some really interesting and innovative things going on in lots of the local schools. We went to a LOT of open evenings and I was really struck by the ones that put the kids front and centre rather than the head talking to the parents about university destinations.

@HarrietBond I remember doing one of the Kingsdale tours and a member of staff was excitedly going on about the "amazing' trips they do - Japan, USA, Ski trips etc.
I asked "Do you do any trips that are in the UK?".
I got an awkward silence and tumbleweed 😂

They do do some UK trips. My child got left off a week-long one because owing to SEN they didn't sort out some paperwork we didn't know was needed. The maths scholarship trips though appear to be mostly to theme parks.

When looking at schools over 7 years ago I had some of the same feelings expressed on this thread. (too big, a bit shabby) My DD got into Kingsdale on the waiting list and she has loved been there. She really wanted a mixed school and we did not have too many options of where we lived as they were based on distance.
@Sleepthief you said you didn't know a kid who had got a musical scholarship without lessons, my DD did - she went in Y8 asked if she could have a singing scholarship, was asked to sing two songs and was awarded one - this entitled her to free music lessons all the way through school (even when she dropped music as a GSCE) They have supported her in taking her exams and she was awarded a distinction recently in Grade 7 signing!
Amazing opportunities to play in bands/orchestra's / steel pan bands/ extra dance etc.

The drama department is fantastic (as well as art and other creative subjects) frequent trips to see theatre often highly subsidised. Maths is brilliant and sport superb. For most of Y7/8/9 and 10 they had around 3 PE sessions weekly doing proper sport with a dedicated sports department.

My daughter entered Kingsdale doing average/well in Maths and left as an A* student - she had committed teachers, who answer emails, and are at hand.
yes, its big and chaotic, and the open days are about them saying how amazing they are - but for all the bluster, they are a decent caring school. The teachers and staff work very hard and I cannot praise them enough. They have issues like most schools, but for us it was the right choice for us. The one plus side of it been a big school is there is also room for everyone - no-one sticks out as been weird., or different as there are enough of everyone for students to find friends or people they click with!

This is very much our experience.

They have also bent over backwards to help DD focus on her strengths and support what she wants to do (at considerable effort to the school - she has a bespoke timetable for example). There has also been a lot of thought when it comes to sets - SEN with a very spiky profile and high IQ.

For a huge school they very much cater to the individual. DD was offered a graphics scholarship in Y7 based on the teachers thinking she had talent... total surprise to us.

I have friends whose kids have flourished at Kingsdale and I'm glad your children have too. It's clearly got some great strengths (although I do know quite a few kids who have had similar experiences to ours re SEN unfortunately, but that can be the case in every school).

I'd say though that many of the things you're talking about are found in lots of good schools. These sort of exchanges inevitably bring the parents of children who have had great experiences to feel the need to defend the school, and that's quite understandable. The school's own hyberbole and admissions policy are quite alienating for others, and it doesn't seem to deliver things over and above other schools that don't shout from the rooftops in the same way.

I also don't know many parents, happy or not with the school, who haven't found the headteacher's attitude quite grating!

Thanks Harriet and ohcrumbs it has been great to get your perspective.

I haven't read the whole thread but get impression loads of the negative stuff is from parents whose kids don't go to kingsdale. I'm quite pleased you are all slagging it off. My 3rd kid won't get a sibling place and I would love them to get in - so hopefully all these negative comments will put you all off applying so we have more chance of getting in. I'd say the music is absolutely exceptional and is my number one reason for trying to get dc3 in, despite other good school options. And yeah, my kid got a scholarship year 8 after no lessons due to covid and is thriving , in about 6 ensembles and now has the opportunity to study music at uni. I feel quite confident this wouldn't have been the case in a different school. Science is shit though!

Thank you Frumpy. I'm pleased people are also coming on to share positive reviews. I started the thread not to slag any school off but because I wanted to hear good reviews. I don't think people have been overly negative but maybe chatting about how the admissions process is a bit mysterious. It's extremely difficult to get a real feel for the school on open days as classes aren't happening whereas other schools I've visited everything has been on show warts and all

Yes I don't think anyone has said they deliver a poor quality of education, and like other posters we know people perfectly happy with it. Just that the admissions process is opaque and unfair to local children and doesn't get borne out by the results which are in line with other local schools.

I just find the whole thing odd and overhyped.

Syd girls has a beautiful library, if I was a kid I'd choose it on that alone!

🤣🤣🤣🤣

It’s a good school with good GCSEs results. It’s very sought after because people can apply from anywhere, I know people from Streatham & Balham whose dc go there as they didn’t have many other options near them. I’ve always thought they do pick more mc families as opposed to a true lotto but who knows.

We toured it last week and were really disappointed. One issue was the behaviour of the two girls who showed us round (the two boys were just silent, interestingly!). One was incredibly rude to the teachers who just giggled at her 🤷🏻‍♀️ I wouldn’t expect them to go all guns blazing in front of everyone, but given there were three other children chaperoning the group someone could have taken her aside. It chimed with the disruption in class reputation I’ve heard from a few people.

We found the building very shabby and chaotic. Lots of signs explaining the various levels of punishment (‘red detention’, ‘yellow detention’) and associated infringements.

We had heard that a friend’s child had been ranked number two in her year - I hadn’t realised they ranked all the pupils!!

DC is really strong at a particular sport but we have decided not to pursue the specific sport section of the ‘scholarship’ given we were given 48 hours notice having enquired politely a couple of times about the process. When I asked the Director of Sport at the Open Day she sneered at me as if I’d asked for some kind of state secret…

That's interesting @Frumpylab. Have they ditched the automatic sibling place and since when?

@Popcorntv we experienced poor behaviour from our tour guides last year too. I was really surprised that they were the pupils they had chosen to show off the school! But I guess they know they are going to be over subscribed. Our guides were cheeky, disinterested and rude. Maybe it’s a form of detention 🤣

Just to counter a few things given there is misinformation here.

DD has been there for 4 years and a term.
Has never had a detention - let alone a 'red' or 'yellow' one.
Has never been ranked for behaviour or attainment.
Children are not picked for tours - they volunteer.

Yes it's huge, but each year is on a different schedule so you never have thousands in the corridor at once.

Unless there is another school with the same name, a lot of what is being said is untrue.

I think Kingsdale brings a lot of curiosity, my daughter received a half scholarship but we did not receive a space. At the beginning we had it high up our list.

It is a lottery based school but I know of several families of children who attend the school, a few from the same street/next door neighbours. I’d say from one of the most affluent parts of our town.

Even though there were several applicants who applied and were unsuccessful from the same year group/school? Again this could all be coincidental.

All communications I’ve had with Kingsdale have been very informative and helpful.

I still personally am not sure if I was enticed purely on the possibility of a scholarship because when I viewed it echoed the above as chaotic and messy with a lot of incredible art displays, the guides were similar to those mentioned by others.

I think Kingsdale will always bring a lot of questions to the table. It seems like a school that offers a lot but we've ended up in a local comp which is offering our DD all we need.

Everyone is looking for something completely different for their child. However the parent view on the Ofsted website is a good indicator as to how parents really feel about the school. Kingsdale’s parent view gives a positive impression overall so they are doing something right.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow I suppose it's possible I was misinformed when DS's subject rankings were printed on his reports, or even his form tutor, who, when I queried it told me the school ranks all students, not just sixth form. Or perhaps my cousin, who's had three children at the school since 2017, was misinformed when she said she hadn't really thought about the ranking system with her eldest because he was always in the top half of the year group and it was only when her (now Y10) son with ADHD joined the school that it became an issue. Or perhaps it is that son, who this time last year knew that because he was 413th in the year he wouldn't be allowed to go on the end of year reward trip 🤔 🙄

Or is it possible that, like my cousin with her eldest, you haven't had cause to pay attention to the rankings because your child is doing well... I mean I can dig out DS's last report from 18 months ago for proof, but it is most certainly not misinformation!

Why on earth would I make up the point about seeing posters explaining the red/yellow detentions? Maybe it is a different school being discussed!

I didn't apply.to Kingsdale as i had heard some pretty scathing stuff from several people I know who have worked there or had kids there. And I figured it's such a long shot I focused on looking round the schools we had some.chance of getting into. My boys ended up at FHB which has pleasantly surprised us all and I would wholeheartedly recommend - I have an academic child.who is doing really well and a child who struggles with school and is enjoying his time there and feels the teachers are supporting him well. So if FGB is on your radar it gets a thumbs up from me!

We have one child there in Y9, and will send our 2nd one there next year as a sibling (sibling rules do still apply). I imagine this may be a harder year than normal to get in as the first year of feeder nurseries and the private school VAT thing possibly pushing up applicant numbers - who knows on the latter though.

In terms if ranking discussed above, for our child any it's as follows: 1 - all pupils are now set (or streamed I'm not sure) for Maths, Sciences and possibly English but these are never officially confirmed as far as I am aware.

There is a rankings system for all pupils based on positive or negative behaviour points awarded by Kingsdale staff members. This used to be available to see through an app, but the ranking now just appears in each end of term report.

Rankings per subject are not an actual ranking, but how a child ranked in their end of term test, but it's not a ranking per se based on anything other than the test (for us anyway).

Pupils are also set targets per subject, though in Y7 and Y8 these are the same for all subjects, which clearly doesn't work in reality. I suspect this changes when they start GCSEs. These are the only ranking type things I am aware of and I hope that makes sense.

You can sign up to virtually any club and attend it. The only clubs (out of the very many) that you only do for shorter periods due to over demand / capacity are Horse Riding, Cycling at Herne Hill Velodrome, Swimming and possibly Archery. I believe they limit these to 6 week or so periods so all children who want to should get a chance to do so. You don't need to me a musci shcolar to join the various music ensembles etc, or do the Art classes, alal the sports on offer, games clubs etc.

15% or so of places (last time I checked) are reserved for a mixture of Sports Scholars or Music Scholars. A full scholarship does not guarentee entry to the school - within Full Scholars they are ranked and only the top % based on how many apply will be offered a place (and this is still only done on general offer day in March). So full scholarship does not guarentee entry but may help, or help if on the waitig list of other scholars decline places.

Once in the school, if offered a place via the lottery (as our son was) then any Scholar offers (G&T, Half or Full Scholar) still apply and your child will receive extra tuition as indicated.

Once offered a place at the School, you can also apply for a Maths or Arts scholarship (you can'y apply for these before being offered a place).

Our child has a Gifted and Talented for Sports, which in effect is the same as a a full scholar once in, and is a Maths scholar. As of Y9, after selecting GCSE music, he has been added to the Music Scholar program (he is just at Grade 4, was Grade 1 when entering the school I think).

Our child is pretty academic , likes sport, doesn't like art, doesn't like roudy behaviour. I thought he'd hate the school when he did the tour but he loves it and has made great friends. As another poster said, the size of the school means it can be easy to find children with a mindset your child is comfortable with.

We've found the teaching on the whole to be excellent and motivational, not universally, supply teachers in science have not always been great, he's never liked the It provision (but also doens't really like IT). On the flip side, he didn't like History in primary, he loves it now, and has chosen Classical Civilisation as a GCSE, something I guess is not offered at a lot of other schools.

His music teachers was inspiration and he chose that for GCSE also as a result of the fantastic teaching he recieved in Y7 and Y8.

We chose it, and people like it because it genuinely has a wide range of subjects and extra-curricular activities. Latin, Spanish, German, French - you can do 2 of these all the way up to and including GCSE, and you can choose which ones you want to do. You can choose between 4 Art subjects, 2 Drama, you get experience in Y7/8 of Food Tech, Drama, Music, Textiles, Art etc so kids get exposure to a wide array of activities.

Like every school, it won't fit every child. Some children have left, some parents will be unhappy. It's important to understand why parents and happy or unhappy when choosing any school and see if it would apply to your child. It's also important to take hearsay with a pinch of salt - there is so much misinformation in this thread alone and most Kingsdale threads from people with no direct experience of the school.

It's not all positive. Communication at the start wasn't always great (though teachers have always been very responsive in our experience), though it is better general now (some parents think it could be improved still). There is a monthly parents forum you can attend and speak to the Deputy etc directly.
Some lessons have taken place in the Atrium, Pod, and during work on the Windows in Marquees. These has reduced significantly now that work the new new science labs have been completed.

The Maths scholars program in Y8 was disappointing with several lessons cancelled at no notice (these occur after school hours) and the proposed trip also cancelled. It did however include 2-3 trips to Imperial college which was eye opening for those attending. The Sports scholars has some nice trips (these are allocated via lottery) but in reality it's an extra 40 minutes over lunch covering some differnt sports vs some Elite sports program. The sports teams, football especially are good but mainly because of the players they have vs the training they receive.

Overall though the positives far outwieght the negatives for us. Our youngest can't wait to do the Art classes there and the Science club. There is simply lots to do there if you want to.