Kingsdale Foundation School

[WhatILoved]

What's so great about this school? I'm navigating choices and have been to visit this one we and others in the area. It is massively over subscribed and people really want their kids to go there. It feels huge. If I'm honest I didn't get a real feeling for it, probably hampered by fact I could only visit in a Saturday whilst other schools I've seen in action during the week. However whenever I ask local parents of older children there if they recommend it I very rarely get outstanding recommendations for it. I've had at worse "don't even think about sending your child there!" And at best " yes my kids have done really well but it's not all that"
I'd love to know therefore why it has waiting lists that go to infinity.

No idea where that comes from but their Progress 8 is 0.1, so children make the progress you’d expect- nothing special. In fact, it’s one of the worst Progress 8 scores in Southwark. www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/schools-by-type?step=default&table=schools&region=210&geographic=la&for=secondary&basedon=Progress%208&show=All%20pupils

@newmum1976 I trust your source far more than mine. That's not good. It makes Kingsdale look not as special from my POV. I withdraw my previous remarks.

Their A Level average result is also in line with national and borough average (B- in old money). I don't think there are any valid progress scores for A Level at the moment due to covid and teacher assessed grades (no baseline).

I don't get the hype to be honest. I'm sure it's absolutely fine and kids enjoy it (it's bang on average in fact) but having to game your intake so much to get average scores - the same as the totally non selective schools nearby in lewisham- means there's something a bit odd going on. They also had their knuckles rapped by Dfe for excessively high pay for the head (one of the highest for a single school trust in the country) and I think had a legal challenge to their admissions process at some point as well.

Banding tests are on the normal distribution aren't they? So you'd expect most to be in the middle?

So by admitting a set percentage from each band, on a distance criteria, you can reach out further for your more able kids rather than risk lots of more local average kids. Private Eye has spent quite a long time puzzling over the kids that Harris Crystal Palace manages to admit.

DD only sat one banding test for a Harris but it seemed to be a percentage from each band, each with a different distance - are you saying they set it to give a desired number in each band?

Gosh, machiavellian!

I didn't put that school first as I couldn't see how to calculate the chances of her getting in...

I know a few people with kids who've been at Kingsdale and none of them overly sing it's praises. I've never quite understood why people get so enthused, especially with those Progress 8 scores. There are under subscribed schools in Lewisham getting better scores than that.

I suppose a defence of the progress 8 score is that they have a high achieving cohort and the cohort are meeting their expectations so there's not much value to add. But with their banding they should have a balanced cohort surely. In which case they ought to have some kids making progress. Maybe not an issue if you have a high achieving kid.

the 2 top progress 8 scores in Bromley borough are 2 superselective grammars... so even with high achievers, there is definitely value to add

If you look at the various distances for banded schools you’ll usually see that the distances for last place offered are further at each end of the scale. Rather than getting the 300 kids that live nearest the school, most of whom are likely to be in the middle, you can only admit a certain percentage of them but ensure you are admitting more able kids who live further away. To be fair, it also means they are taking a certain percentage of kids who are scoring below the average, and the system is known as fair banding.

Yeah I wasn't very convinced by that as a defence tbh. I was just trying to think what the counter might be to my view that it's a really poor score.

"They are in the top 7% country wide".

Where does this info come from please @DadJoke ?

I live locally and have known lots of children who've gone through the school. I wouldn't say it's exceptional in any regard. Of the children I know best - two had to re-take one or more A levels.

Yes exactly. Harris Bromley Girls even 2-tier their system so they do half the kids from within I think a mile of the school, then the second half of kids can be from any distance away. So they could take top banded children from 6 miles away.

Of course this applies to lower bands too, but there's evidence that the lowest achievers or those from chaotic families or kids with SEN might not manage to get to a banding test or are easily put off by one. So you might have 'fair banding' but that assumes all kids in a potential cohort have applied. There's a lot of research evidence that the more a school cultivates an air of 'exclusivity' (scholarships, 'grammar streams') the more poorer and lower achieving kids' families are put off. So the bands all skew upwards and that bottom 10 or 20% never even apply.

We visited this school last week with high 'expectations' thinking it was going to be one of our top preferences, and.we left with a 'not even going on the list'. We absolutely disliked this school for so many reasons.

1. The speech didn't sound honest, and they're just extremely clever with their wording (if you look closely grades aren't that great compared to other local secondary schools).
2. I hated the idea of mixed ability classes, then what's the point of a banding test, and when on earth will the less able child ever catch up.

3.The buildings were claustrophobic, and we didn't even have 2000+ students walking past us, the thought of so many people walking past as an stampede over my daughter terrified me.
3.It's just so big, how do they handle lunches, enrichment classes, extra curriculum, pastoral care, bullying etc (they also have a 6th form by the way.

1. All teachers during the guide greet us with a 'sorry no questions' Seriously? on Open day?

5.It was extremely hot and humid, and it wasnt even hot outside, poor kids having lessons in such conditions. We felt bored and sleepy and really wanted to leave.

I might have missed the Wow factor that everybody raves about, but to us Kingsdale is just OVERRATED.

See my later posts. I am not sure now about the reliability of my original source.

schoolopinion.co.uk/london/southwark/kingsdale-foundation-school-6320

That's interesting Dimum. I couldn't get booked on to a speech. Too full!

That Kingsdale open day speech is notorious. When we went they had a mad parent talking and saying that when her son got the letter of acceptance (I mean surely it's a portal login email thing) she felt that he had had an amazing marriage proposal.

Brilliant story

Mixed ability classes must be a new thing.

KFS set for all subjects for Y9-11, and in Y7 and Y8 set for English, Maths and Science. All other classes are with tutor groups (bar MFL as that is choice dependent). They may not say the tutor groups are set by ability, but DD's certainly was.

In terms of grades, I believe the latest Maths GCSE had over 50% get 7-9. English and Science had best results ever but I don't know percentages.

At the end of the day, you want to find a school that fits your child and their skill sets and ability level. If you have an academic clever child then attainment for that demographic is going to be more important to you than overall P8 scores.

I must admit that I find some of the comments here quite intriguing in light of the comments on some of the VAT threads about how brilliant it will be for schools if the sharp-elbowed middle-classes start using state schools. Doesn't seem as if it's quite so popular in practice?

Before the HT started the scholarships and lottery entry, KFS was the school people did everything to avoid. He wanted to target the middle-classes and did so very successfully - now everyone complains.

Ha! Loads of middle class people are using state schools already, as I’m sure you know. I find those threads quite mystifying as I know an awful lot of middle class people, with fairly pointy elbows, and almost all of them are already in the state school system. I don’t think a greater percentage of them will be a magic bullet for the system as a whole, but their individual offspring tend to benefit from whatever system they’re in more than other children often do. Obviously I am one of those parents.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow to be honest a lot of the complaints I know are more about the lottery entrance system.
It's deeply unfair that a child could live literally next door and lose a place to some kid that's commuting from somewhere all the way in North London.
But as I said upthread I believe they are going to start giving priority to children from several nearby primaries.

And the lottery system was put in place to stop the school filling with the kids from the estate nearby, as the wealthier local kids were going private. It’s quite right to say it used to have a dreadful reputation and this is a massive turnaround over 15-odd years. But there are other very good local schools who don’t necessarily set out to attract the middle classes and still get the job done.

@HarrietBond how awful to not want to give children from the estate an education 🙄

I don't think posters are saying that, they're saying the opposite. They're saying that local schools should serve their local community. Which Kingsdale don't. Like most London schools they are in an area which is incredibly mixed socially and economically but deliberately exclude many of those children.

On their website it says 'we are a school for aspirational families'. Was absolutely desperate to ask them to define 'aspirational' but sadly one is not allowed to ask any questions. Which families do they think are not aspirational for their kids I wonder?

I agree the heads' talk is the stuff of comedy legend locally! Imagine being that parent on the platform.

I have been on a lot of tours for my Year 6 recently and the Kingsdale head and deputy impressed me. What I liked most about the school is, that whilst it is good at Maths/Science, there is a real focus on Music/Art/DT/Sports and that broad focus is lacking in many other schools. It is nice to have proper libraries too, for example. The teacher pupil ratio is great despite the size of the school and most of the teachers I heard speak were dedicated and impressive.
So they are providing a much broader education along the ethos of a lot of private schools by having high expectations. I think that is good.
I also overheard some parents speak about some local primaries becoming feeders.
It obviously is a very successful turnaround story. Some people have been calling for lottery systems and broader education for all so I am not sure why this school gets criticised for doing exactly what many ideologists have been demanding.