Detentions as a punishment

[SweatyLama]

I didn't grow up in the UK, but my children were born here. This year, my DS started secondary school for the first time, and I discovered that they have a system of punishments in place. Is this a common practice in all state schools in Britain? I really don't like this system ( I mean punishments) and find it degrading and outdated.

But your son is not you, and mine is not me. It's boring for them. And i really don't think it's something necessary and something a child won't be able to master later

@SweatyLama the school system has to manage significant numbers of children. To do that they need discipline. Every school publishes their rules. Taking the place means you agreed to them.

You are entitled to your opinion and methods outside school. But if you don't get on board with the school the only person impacted will be your son.

So either support him following the rules and obtaining an appropriate attitude or home school because the school isn't changing.

How many years of experience do you have teaching secondary-level maths or beyond?

You seem utterly clueless as to what a lot of kids are actually like in schools. When I am pushed when pregnant by a year 10 lad twice my size I am not going to wait until I can calmly discuss it with a parent: I’m going to get him out of the classroom. When I have set aside 2 hours of my Saturday to mark a class’s homework only to find that only half have come in I’m not going to say, oh well, that’s fine, I’ll allocate another hour next Saturday to mark the work that we will have moved past by then anyway in addition to the new homework. No, I’ll give them detention and make them do it. I’m also not particularly partial to being sworn at and don’t find it particularly helpful when a parent says, ‘Well school was shit when I went, it’s still shit now so I can see why he told you to fuck off when you asked him to write’. Before anyone says anything, no, not all kids are like this and no, not all schools are like this. Many are absolutely delightful BUT there are some shockers out there too and staff have to be able to do SOMETHING to keep a calm, productive environment and encourage children to grow into decent human beings.

You say that if you were late coming to school you would quietly go into class and the natural consequence was having missed the teacher’s instructions and information. If someone comes late to my class I am still expected to go over things again to support them and I am judged on that student’s results. Therefore, coming in late takes time away from other students and reduces the chance of good grades. This means that we do need sanctions that will stop students being late. It’s selfish and disruptive.

What would be your suggestions? Teachers have to deal with huge amounts of low level disruptions, students refusing to follow the rules, swearing at them and each other, deliberately breaking things, violence etc. a simple "please don't do it again" is not really going to work ...

We used to get lines which was worse than a detention!

Personally I would remove disruptive kids from the class to an inclusion centre, removed twice in a month is a weeks exclusion. I would not enforce a uniform (at all) and would extend the school day (even if you charge the parents) to include prep time so they don't have homework.

DS will be going to the same comp as my husband. We went for the visit and the focus on uniform is unreal yet it was and still is constantly top of the local league table. All DH's school friends have been really successful so the babying about uniform isn't needed.

Oh right, so you have some experience teaching teens in an unspecified setting for an unspecified amount of time... well, in that case you definitely know more than the teachers dealing with the disruptive, aggressive, violent disengaged young people who have difficult lives, disengaged parents and ongoing safeguarding concerns in the classrooms 5 days a week.

Please tell them how it's done.

Go on, tell the teacher who just been told to fuck off and stop being a cunt, and had a 6ft3 15 yo shove a table over and kicked the door on their way out - how they should find a way to get the kids respect. Or even that cocky little 11 year old who lis constantly low level disruptive and the parents refuse to answer the phone/come in, because they don't give a shit either.
All whilst dealing with 29 other kids, all who have various issues and needs.

With your vast experience, how does that teacher get those kids to a point of respect and engagement....

I'll wait.

Of course, I was referring to occasional lateness, not something habitual. But what surprises me is that people genuinely believe if a child isn’t taught to be on time at school, they won’t learn to do it as an adult.

Well, at what point would the learn that being on time is important if they're not taught this when they're children?

It's not about 1 child being late. It's about group expectations and safety and attendance.

Imagine if the kids could turn up whenever they want without recourse... You're taking morning registration ( a legal requirement) just before you start your maths lesson, and you have no idea whether the child is going to walk in 15 minutes late or if they're missing.

You have to report missing children to the office staff. So you report them absent without reason, and then staff have to go and fine 13/30 kids who just decided not to bother showing up.

And then, as you've started the lesson for the 17 present children, the 13 others start appearing in dribs and drabs over the next 20 minutes, even if they "sneak in quietly", each one is disturbing the lesson, having to catch up on what's going on. All the children will be distracted every time another pupil turns up.
Bells rings and the kids leave, and are replaced by 15/30 for the next class. You take the register, report 15 kids missing to the office, the staff try and find them and hurry them to lessons... then you start the lesson, and 5 of them burst in 13 minutes late, giggling and causing a kerfuffle whilst sitting down, you get them settled, another 2 turn up, then 5 minutes later 4 turn up demanding to know what's happening in the lesson, then 1 turns up and starts calling across the room to their friends etc. oh and they still haven't found one kid. Just because they felt like not going and there's no obvious/immediate consequence to them.

All in all, It's a sensible thing to insist children are present on the room by the time the lesson starts.

Are you implying that secondary teachers aren't doing a great job?
What do you think happens during these detention 'punishments'?
Do you think we flog the students?
No, we either have restorative conservations to discuss why they're disrupting lessons or they catch up the homework that they missed
Detentions are a pain to teachers.
No- one wants to use up their precious planning time after school running them but we do because we want to get the best out of our students.

Out of interest, which country are you from and how do secondaries in your country manage this?

It has everything to do with respect for the person they’re late for. Good lord, that’s just basic manners.

I’d prefer not to talk about my son. That’s a personal matter, and I’ll help him work through his issues. I wanted to discuss this in a general context. But I’m surprised that almost everyone believes these 'sanctions' are beneficial and meaningful, without recognising how humiliating they can be. I doubt anyone would think it’s acceptable to be fined at work for forgetting a pen at home, not turning off their phone, or missing a deadline. In real life, people finish their work in their own time rather than being punished by sitting alone in a room

@SweatyLama exactly where are the workplaces that don't care about when work is done? Because I am sure you would want the paramedic to be on time, the midwife, the surgeon.

I am sure you want the food on shelves which are delivered by people adhering to a timetable to ensure their wares can be brought in to the store.

I am assuming you want the food packed so that means a team being on time together completing tasks to a deadline.

I think your approach is doing your son a disservice.

Do you think this could happen to an adult? Could an adult be pushed to take antidepressants for doing their job well? I’m glad the school helped your brother prove his innocence. And if your brother had made a mistake, he would’ve received fewer marks than if he had shown his working out. That would’ve been a natural consequence. But forcing compliance through punishment is just humiliation

It’s because in their assessments a lot of the marks come from the working. You don’t want your child to limit themselves to one mark of 4 because they didn’t show their working out

In what other situation would you have between 1000-2000 hormonal teenagers in one relatives small space and expect them to move around, attend lessons and have free time? School is not the work place where adults interact.
It's a place where they learn, not only the lessons that are being taught but also how to socialise and how to become a member of society.
They need rules, rewards and sanctions to be able to function and keep everyone safe.
Everyone in society is expected to follow the rule of law and will be punished if they don't.
With regard to your comments about lateness, I work in a school (no longer a teacher thank goodness), but yes we would be fired for lateness, which you also would in so many other professions.

Private schools have them. Think of it as a deterrent rather than punishment. The worst one was missing playing in a match or a Saturday morning detention. My son had one and actually enjoyed the chat with the deputy head who then gave him his old school rugby sweatshirt!
And they do detentions in primary too.

Yes, they could. Many people are on antidepressants because doing their job well,.sticking to deadlines, completing work to the standard expected and doing it to the bosses satisfaction is often stressful.

In real life it’s useless being able to solve a mathematical problem if you can’t explain to other people how you did it though. No one ever got a maths degree without showing their working. No one ever got any kind of postgrad science degree without clearly setting out their methodology and explaining their results. No one has their architectural plans brought to life without a civil engineer checking the physics of the plans and probably a mathematician or another engineer double checking the calculations.

You don't have to discuss them with us, but do approach the school. They will have strategies to help especially when they hear he is struggling. Probably the low level difficulties he is currently facing are not enough to flag them contacting you at the moment. They are not your or his enemy. You will not change the whole system the school uses but you might be able to work on helping your son to navigate the rules.

How would you discipline teenagers?

"My child hasn’t been late for a single lesson yet, but he’s been marked late twice for not completing the register in time. However, I think I know how to solve the issue, and I don’t want to discuss my son further. I’m advocating any student who’s late to class, even if it causes inconvenience to my son, who arrived on time.

In reality, it’s not a big deal. I’m speaking both as a teacher who’s had students come in late (quietly taking their seats without disruption) and as a student whose classmates were occasionally late. If the teacher doesn’t make it an issue, it really doesn’t interfere with the lesson at all.

" they would quietly enter the classroom and continue learning with everyone else" & "There were no punishments for bad behavior either. Instead, parents were called in, and together with the teacher, they would address the issue." These are the key points of difference between your old classmates and the teenagers in the UK unfortunately.