how common are detentions at secondary?

[Cocostardust]

I know this sounds like a bit of a how long is a piece of string question but I just want a vague idea of how this works.

my daughter has just started at Secondary school. She’s a really well behaved girl, genuinely very sweet and never been in any trouble.

they had a 2 week grace period where they didn’t get detention then on 16th (the day they started) she came home with one straight away. It was for misunderstanding her homework and doing it slightly wrong. She’d spent an hour of the allotted ‘10 minutes’ on it and tried so bloody hard. She was in floods of tears when she came home.

tuesday her friend got one for helping another year 7 yo class who’d got lost then today her best friend got one for forgetting to put her name on her homework. They made her stay and redo the homework even though it had already been done, she ended up not having time to have lunch so went the day without eating, is this normal for schools?

The reason I’m writing is firstly this all seems crazy to me. Of course the schools should be allowed to discipline the children but for forgetting to put their name on the sheet and misunderstanding something?? Surely the teachers should be having a quick chat with the children so they can explain themselves but they’re just handing out detentions like they’re sweets with a total disregard to how much this is affecting the children.

The meaning of detention has clearly changed a lot in 30 years and while I can accept that it doesn’t mean I can force my daughter to.

she has a nervous tic which over the past week has gone through the roof, we were at the point where she had almost got rid of it. She’s also struggling with the insane amount of homework they’re all getting.

as I said I understand they have to be disciplined but shouldn’t that be for when they’ve genuinely done something wrong? It feels like the school don’t give a damn about the kids and how they’re coping.

on a side note they went from outstanding to required improvement over the summer and part of me is wondering if it’s always been like this or if they’ve been told to crack down.

curious about what other think

ParentOfOne

I suspect that the problem is more to do with the original design of the school than safety.

As for the council saying that there is space for bike parking.
I wonder if the council are going to offer to pay for the cycle parking and offer their "cycle training sessions" for free.

@FrippEnos They designed the school that way. There was room to park bicycles, but they decided not to build bike parking spaces for students because they had already decided on their no-bike policy.

A quick search tells me that the council offers a number of bike courses, typically through the schools when it comes to children: https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/transport/active-modes-of-travel/cycling/cycle-training-and-skills/free-cycling-training-courses-for-adults-and-children/

@ParentOfOne ,

‘??????? Where on earth would I have said or implied that???’

There is no need for the shocked italics.

You mentioned a teacher penalising a girl for wearing a similar skirt to the teacher and a teacher in a coat confiscating coats. You totally implied teachers and pupils should follow the same rules.

A teacher should be allowed to exercise professional discretion within the guidance when choosing what skirt to wear, the pupil needs to follow the school rules.

As for the coat thing, I don’t really get the rule but, maybe, in certain rougher schools with issues with drugs or weapons, it may be for pupil and staff safety.

And do remember, the pupils are transitioning from one lesson to another or going either from a lesson to break or vice versa. The teacher will be standing still on duty for at least 30 mins (at lunchtime). So it isn’t hypocritical to wear a coat and take a pupil’s.

We agree that there should be a balance and, maybe, we are not too far apart. But I think you are too quick to criticise schools and teachers without knowing what teaching is actually like and seeing actual behaviour in an actual classroom.

@ParentOfOne and @FrippEnos ,

People get very excited about Ashcroft. To me, it is the antithesis of what a school should be (I think the teachers also have to teach from prepared lesson plans) but it does get good results and some say that, once used to their harsh ways, pupils enjoy it as there is very little disruption.

Most importantly, they make no secret of what they are, they are really proud of it! So, if you choose it for your child, you honestly can’t be surprised when they get an hour’s detention for not writing their name on their homework. They also use the sneaky trick of having an official finishing time an hour after school ends, so they neither tell parents of the detention or allow extra curricular as an excuse, as it is ‘in school hours’.

A weird school but you don’t have to choose it and I certainly wouldn’t. But, as I said upthread, it is genuinely popular.

@Newbutoldfather I think we actually agree on more things than we disagree on.

I never implied that teachers and pupils should always follow the same rules - you misunderstood.

"You mentioned a teacher penalising a girl for wearing a similar skirt to the teacher and"

I did not. I mentioned that the girl in question was given detention for wearing a cheaper Asda skirt which was 99.9% identical to the official skirt of the official supplier. You must have made some confusion. See picture and link below for a comparison of the skirts.

I may be too quick in criticising schools, but you may be too quick in justifying them and dismissing the possibility that some rules are illogical and just petty and capricious.

On the Holderness academy skirt case: look at the pictures https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/976/cpsprodpb/15391/production/_131092968_skirtts2976.jpg.webp on the BBC site and tell me what was wrong with the cheaper, Asda skirt https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-66812748
That the pleats start an inch above where those of the official supplier (which may have bribed struck a good deal with the school)? Shock and horror, civilisation as we know it will come to an end, and the girls wearing those slightly different pleats will become morally corrupt and waste their life in vice and sin, surely!!!

You also know there have been many cases of schools banning trousers for girls. Yes, in those cases the rules are clear, but they are also wrong and anachronistic, and must be called out and challenged.

This other child went to hospital for a strep infection and flu, doctors told him that the school official coat was not warm enough for him, parents send him to school in a warmer coat... and the school confiscated the coat
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/dad-says-school-confiscated-winter-26037885
Do you disagree that the headteacher should be locked in a white room with padded walls and a straightjacket?

I could go on with similar cases, but you get the gist.

Lastly, on choice: taxpayers do not have the choice not to fund these schools.
It is one thing to say that each school has different, has a different ethos, whatever.
But they should all respect the law and common sense.

If I see a school that only gives homework once a month, I may conclude it's not for my child but I won't want to raise a fight to change it.

But when there is clear discrimination or petty and capricious rules or sanctions than border on bullying and which could affect children';s mental health, that's different. If I see schools banning trousers for girls or forcing students to wear flimsy thin coats in the middle of the winter or any of this nonsense, my reaction is that I would want to contribute to changing this nonsense, even if that school might not be appropriate for my child for other reasons.

@ParentOfOne ,

I’m sorry the school one is hilarious!

I don’t believe for one moment doctors told him the school coat wasn’t warm enough! Especially considering the school said they would make exceptions for real medical need. His dad bought him a £200+ designer puffa jacket in the wrong colour, and he acts all sad and surprised when it is confiscated (as if there are no plain black warm jackets available, or thermal t shirts to wear under.

This one is just entitled piss taking.

@ParentOfOne ,

The skirt/trouser one is a bit meh, in modern parlance.

People kick off when schools try to just make trousers mandatory for both sexes and very few seriously want to give boys the choice of trousers or skirts.

Someone will always think it is unfair somehow.

I wasn't talking about giving boys the choice of trousers or skirts.
I was saying that girls should be able to choose. Any policy which forces only trousers or only skirts for girls is illogical and unfounded.

I find many of the sad face stories quite amusing.
In most cases they are families that claim to be very poor the kids have a smart phone and the article of clothing is a designer item.
But the truth is often the parents were aware of the rules before they went ahead and broke them, then decide to blame the school for following its own rules.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘I wasn't talking about giving boys the choice of trousers or skirts.
I was saying that girls should be able to choose. Any policy which forces only trousers or only skirts for girls is illogical and unfounded.’

How is that fair on the boys? That will definitely get challenged by parents of boys.

I taught at a girls’ school where a few of the girls campaigned for the right to wear trousers. They were quite impressive and the head ended up agreeing. No more than 5% of the school actually came in trousers. It was more the right that they cared about than the actual trousers. But, at a girls’ school, I agree with giving them the choice.

@FrippEnos ,

That story is particularly hilarious as it is so clearly confected. Not quite as good as my all time favourite in the Sun of yesteryear: ‘Freddie Starr ate my hamster’, but not too far off.

Can you imagine an actual doctor believing viral and bacterial infections are caused by a school coat not being warm enough, or not knowing that he could layer up?! And he clearly didn’t have a doctor’s note, or the school would have had to agree. And, of course, a North Face (the teen designer brand of choice) blue coat being an obvious substitute for a black school coat….

Its not as if North face don't actually make a black puffa jacket.

As a secondary school teacher I would say this is harsh. Contact your DDs Leader of Year (or whatever equivalent her school has) and explain the situation. You could also email directly the teachers who have set these detentions. Encourage the friends' parents to do the same. Only by questioning it will things potentially change. If the responses from these staff members aren't satisfactory and don't solve things, contact the Head. Behaviour polices are written to be followed & if staff are deviating for questionable things this isn't right. It's also not right that the students are being given so much homework. Again, contact the school. If they are a good school they will have a homework policy and this usually includes a timetable. Year 7 students shouldn't be overwhelmed three weeks in, often it's because departments don't communicate & set homework all at once, a timetable solves this issue. Do keep talking to the school, often things can be solved. I'd be interested to know what their responses are!

The North Face choice may be questionable, but, before jumping to conclusions based on their own prejudices, bootlickers could do worse than look into the details.

For example, the father in question explains, measuring with a caliper, how thin the official school-approved winter clothing is.

It seems that the uniform policy hasn't changed: https://www.jesmondparkacademy.org.uk/about-the-academy/school-information/school-uniform
The school still insists that

The only coats that may be worn are the Jesmond Park Academy rain jacket and/or the Jesmond Park Academy outdoor micro fleece.

I can understand banning designer items.
I can understand insisting on dark coats.

But can you please explain why on earth the school should dictate exactly how thick the padding of my child's winter coat should be?

Yes, a child could wear a thermal tshirt underneath, but then that might be too warm indoors.

Why not say, for example, that you must wear the school coat, provided by the official supplier which bribed the school of renowned quality, but that you can wear any kind of fleece or down underneath, as long as it's black or navy?

Please, o bootlickers, @Newbutoldfather @FrippEnos

could you please kindly explain what is achieved by dictating that a child must not possibly wear anything warmer than what a repressed headteacher who didn't get enough love from mummy very wise headteacher has ruled to be appropriate in their infinite wisdom??? I'm all ears.

My interpretation of rules which get so petty, capricious and pervasive is that individuals should switch off their brains and submit. Is yours different? It is no coincidence that cults and dictatorships are so pervasive in their rules.

And, again, to be clear, I am all for discipline and hard work. I am all for a zero-tolerance policy against disruptive behaviour, misbehaviour, missed homework, etc. But you do not need these extremes to achieve discipline and good academic performance, you absolutely do not.

There is a difference between a discipline conducive to a productive learning environment, where pupils learn to apply critical thinking, and beating children into submission and getting them to switch off their brain, punishment after punishment.

Oh, and remember that research is absolutely inconclusive on the benefits of uniforms, so any headteachers insisting otherwise is talking bull.

Hi OP,

This sounds bonkers. DD has just started at another secondary in Cambridge (I do know Bottisham is just outside). They haven't even been given homework yet - that starts next week. But restricted to English and until half term. DD has told us lots about school; we know detentions exist, but she certainly hasn't had one, and I think you have to try quite hard to get one. So it definitely isn't all schools.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘The North Face choice may be questionable, but, before jumping to conclusions based on their own prejudices, bootlickers could do worse than look into the details.’

Bootlickers? Maybe you should wonder how Aaron got so much publicity for such a ridiculous dispute? A little deeper googling might serve you well.

‘The only coats that may be worn are the Jesmond Park Academy rain jacket and/or the Jesmond Park Academy outdoor micro fleece. ‘

They can wear up to four layers. This is a trip to school in the uk, not northern Canada.

If it were really an issue, do you think it would be Aaron and Levon vs Jesmond or that lots of parents would have complained? There don’t seem to be any other parents or children who have contributed to the articles.

In addition, I taught physics. Insulation isn’t caused by jacket thickness! In fact, some of the most expensive new ski gear is really thin. It is a combination of factors. But it is basically the air doing the insulating. So 4 good layers will do a lot more than his 36mm £200 designer jacket (that range, by the way, is a fashion garment. North Face’s actual ski jackets look nothing like it).

‘But can you please explain why on earth the school should dictate exactly how thick the padding of my child's winter coat should be?’

Unless you want to home ed, you place your child’s school in loco parentis. That means they can dictate this.

‘There is a difference between a discipline conducive to a productive learning environment, where pupils learn to apply critical thinking, and beating children into submission and getting them to switch off their brain, punishment after punishment.’

This is totally hyperbolic. No one is beating Levon, or even freezing him.

I would love to know the full other side of this story. Unfortunately GRPR prevents the school really saying.

@Newbutoldfather
"They can wear up to four layers. This is a trip to school in the uk, not northern Canada."
Irrelevant. It is not for the authorities to decide how many layers of clothing an individual should or should not wear. Whatever dress code policy they want to enforce, they can enforce it by still leaving students the ability to choose how many layers.

I often go out wearing a rolled up shirt while my partner is next to me wearing a down jacket. It's incredibly subjective. Oh, wait, maybe one of us should be sent to a maximum security prison for having violated the approved numbers of layers???

Insulation isn’t caused by jacket thickness!
True but irrelevant. Yes, of course, a top of the range down jacket with 850 fill power down will be thin but much warmer than a thick fleece from the supermarket. The point remains that it is not for the school to decide that a child must not wear warmer clothes.

"If it were really an issue, do you think it would be Aaron and Levon vs Jesmond or that lots of parents would have complained? There don’t seem to be any other parents or children who have contributed to the articles"
Irrelevant. Some parents don't care. Some are terrified of the character assassination and misrepresentation in the media. An idiotic policy isn't right just because few people complain. I don't know how many people complained or not - do you?

Unless you want to home ed, you place your child’s school in loco parentis. That means they can dictate this.
You totally dodged the question, and threw in some unnecessary Latin just for the sake of it. The crucial point remains: why the censored should a school decide how warm is warm enough and should prohibit a pupil from wearing warmer clothing? WHY?? PLEASE SOME OF YOU BOOTLICKERS TELL ME WHY!!!??

What does this teach, what does this achieve, how and why?

This is totally hyperbolic
It is not. It is very telling that you are unable / unwilling to answer the very banal question above. I can certainly answer why I am keen on certain policies. I am keen on a no-phone policy because phones are detrimental to the mental health of children and teenagers. I am keen on a policy which deters and punishes misbehaviour and disruption because avoiding those is crucial for learning (not much learning in a class of loud unruly children).

But dictating the thickness /warmth of clothes? Why? And why can't you answer that? Have you been beaten so much into submission that you lost your ability to stop, think with your own mind, and ask: why? where is the proof?

@ParentOfOne ,

‘I often go out wearing a rolled up shirt while my partner is next to me wearing a down jacket. It's incredibly subjective. Oh, wait, maybe one of us should be sent to a maximum security prison for having violated the approved numbers of layers???’

As I have repeatedly said, a school environment is completely different to an office or you and your husband.

‘You totally dodged the question, and threw in some unnecessary Latin just for the sake of it. The crucial point remains: why the censored should a school decide how warm is warm enough and should prohibit a pupil from wearing warmer clothing? WHY?? PLEASE SOME OF YOU BOOTLICKERS TELL ME WHY!!!??’

I actually answered the question. The Latin is a commonly used phrase to mean that you have delegated parental authority to the school while your child is there. The school are a uniform school. That is what parents have signed up for. Pupils can wear between 2 and 4 layers of the uniform to achieve the desired level of warmth.

This isn’t cruel or unusual!

ParentOfOne

When you start resorting to name calling you have nothing left to say.

A school environment is completely different to an adult environment, but what remains the same is that how one perceives temperature can be extremely subjective and vary wildly from person to person.

No, you did not answer the question. I asked you why, I asked you what is achieved by dictating the maximum warmth and by preventing students from wearing warmer clothes. You did NOT answer this. Your only answer was that it's a uniform school and the school decides. This does not answer my questions at all.

If your child told you: "I am always cold, I know that other kids are OK but I am always cold with the school coat and fleece, why can I not wear warmer clothes?" what would you tell them? Would you tell them to suck it up because the headteacher knows best? Would you move them to another school? Please, do tell me.

You could have blown me away with a very detailed answer on why a headteacher dictating the maximum level of warmth is acceptable because reason and achieves objective in method.
Odd that you didn't, right?

Can I ask you, too: If your child told you: "I am always cold, I know that other kids are OK but I am always cold with the school coat and fleece, why can I not wear warmer clothes?" what would you tell them? Would you tell them to suck it up because the headteacher knows best? Would you move them to another school? Please, do tell me.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘If your child told you: "I am always cold, I know that other kids are OK but I am always cold with the school coat and fleece, why can I not wear warmer clothes?" what would you tell them? Would you tell them to suck it up because the headteacher knows best? Would you move them to another school? Please, do tell me.’

OK, honestly, I would first check what they were wearing and how they were wearing it. Then I would suggest a thermal vest under it (I am sorry, if they feel the cold that badly and take off two layers when they get to school, they won’t suddenly be too hot).

I would also suggest that they walked faster to generate heat.

In the unlikely event they still complained of cold, I would take them to a doctor and investigate if there was an underlying medical cause.

If there was an underlying reason, I would then e mail the form tutor and ask if we could agree to a suitable modification. If not, I would probably tell them to just live with it, no one can be totally comfortable all the time.

I teach my children resilience. Yes, they get support, but sometimes they are told to suck things up. Again, it is a balance. If they get one unfair detention, I tell them to live with it and explain that it his a bit of their time and there are worse things in life. Obviously, if I feel they are genuinely being treated unfairly, I discuss it with the school.

@branstonpickle28 thank you for your comment. I have nothing to compare her homework quantity to but I’ve just looked on Go4Schools and checked, she has 10 lots of homework due in the next 7 days. This is not including the further homework that she’s going to be set next week with shorter notice. I was expecting homework but feel this is too much so early on. She’s struggling to keep on top of what she has and it just keeps coming in. If she gets anything wrong, forgets to put her name on it or even misunderstands it she risks punishment. The homework is meant to take her 10 minutes but it’s taking her far longer. I would be really interested in a vague comparison to other schools homework structure at this stage, perhaps this is the correct amount?

@Cocostardust ,

I think this is ridiculous.

I think part of it is that she has got herself in a tizz and is misunderstanding what is required. Have you looked at the 10 minute homeworks? Do they look like 10 minutes or much longer?

Does she use a homework diary. I would go through that with her and help her get organised.

To be honest, I would do the less useful homework with her (tell her what to write) and help her complete the more important tasks.

Then I would ask for a meeting with her form tutor or head of year and explain exactly what you have on this thread and ask for a solution. Most schools have a gentle transition into Year 7, some even have no homework until half term in the first term.

DD has just started Y7 and has had two pieces of home work so far. A small list of maths questions and a science task which was to design a safety poster. School have said homework is only set for 3 subjects (maths, science, English) until October half term, to ease them in. This is a state grammar school.