how common are detentions at secondary?

[Cocostardust]

I know this sounds like a bit of a how long is a piece of string question but I just want a vague idea of how this works.

my daughter has just started at Secondary school. She’s a really well behaved girl, genuinely very sweet and never been in any trouble.

they had a 2 week grace period where they didn’t get detention then on 16th (the day they started) she came home with one straight away. It was for misunderstanding her homework and doing it slightly wrong. She’d spent an hour of the allotted ‘10 minutes’ on it and tried so bloody hard. She was in floods of tears when she came home.

tuesday her friend got one for helping another year 7 yo class who’d got lost then today her best friend got one for forgetting to put her name on her homework. They made her stay and redo the homework even though it had already been done, she ended up not having time to have lunch so went the day without eating, is this normal for schools?

The reason I’m writing is firstly this all seems crazy to me. Of course the schools should be allowed to discipline the children but for forgetting to put their name on the sheet and misunderstanding something?? Surely the teachers should be having a quick chat with the children so they can explain themselves but they’re just handing out detentions like they’re sweets with a total disregard to how much this is affecting the children.

The meaning of detention has clearly changed a lot in 30 years and while I can accept that it doesn’t mean I can force my daughter to.

she has a nervous tic which over the past week has gone through the roof, we were at the point where she had almost got rid of it. She’s also struggling with the insane amount of homework they’re all getting.

as I said I understand they have to be disciplined but shouldn’t that be for when they’ve genuinely done something wrong? It feels like the school don’t give a damn about the kids and how they’re coping.

on a side note they went from outstanding to required improvement over the summer and part of me is wondering if it’s always been like this or if they’ve been told to crack down.

curious about what other think

Thank you so much. That’s reassuring but also sad to hear. I am starting to feel like I’ve made a mistake sending her to Bottisham. It would worry me making the same mistake again… feel free to PM me where yours is going if you don’t feel comfortable popping it on here, I’d love to know even just to be curious. I am really hoping things pick up but this school is really not sitting right with me.

I've just started at a new secondary, which is (I think) firm but fair with sanctions. I would have given a sanction for one of these, but not the other two, and I wouldn't have given a detention for any. Some colleagues might, but I think it's because they're weak practitioners to be honest.

I did give out detentions to year 7 this week for lateness to lesson, however, the children in question claimed they 'couldn't find the room' when it's their tutor room. They were late from break - a friendship group of them. It was appropriate, and the DT was only a break time one.

I also gave some out for lack of homework. I remind them every day of what the homework is, when it's due, and ask if anybody has any questions or issues completing it. There is no excuse/reason for non-completion then, surely?

I do think it's school dependent though, and even staff member dependent to be honest. I am not very sanction-heavy in general, and much prefer praise and to build decent relationships based on mutual respect. My classes know they can have a bit of fun with me, but only because I expect them to meet behaviour and work expectations in return. I don't have much in the way of disruption in my lessons because of this.

DD is at St Bede's (I'd already name changed for this thread); we're in catchment for North Cambridge Academy, which we didn't feel was a good fit - I appreciate we were lucky to have the option.

I've asked DD, and she doesn't know anyone who's had a detention so far; there are less significant sanctions (demerits) but these are used sparingly; again DD doesn't know of any Y7's who've had one yet.

Other parents whose children haven't always understood the rules initially say that for a first offence their child has been told how to correct their error (these were minor infractions, not significant disruption or bullying); sanctions aren't the first reaction.

We looked at several Cambridge schools last year, but I know less about the village ones.

At my school we would never give a detention for getting work wrong. We would set one for not bothering to do it. They do get detentions for being late to lesson but we are still be lenient with the 7 here as they are still all getting lost.

Behaviour wise certain serious things would be an instant detention, for talking our of turn, getting out of their seat etc it's a reminder, then a recorded warning, then a detention on the third strike.

At DD1 and DD2's school there is a strict homework policy and timetable. If a teacher assigns homework over this, the kids can complain and the assignment will be removed.

At DD3's (different) school they seem to load as much homework on as they can!

DD1 and 2 go to the local grammar. DD3 goes to the local comp but it's the only comp among the academy's schools - not sure if that makes a difference or not.

ParentOfOne

Odd that you didn't, right?

Odd that you would think that I could be bothered to continue a 'discussion' to someone who thinks that its appropriate to call others names.

As far as I am concerned you no longer have any points worth replying to.

Have a good night.

Homework levels seem to vary massively between schools. My sister works at a comprehensive and she says she doesn't set much homework at all— the evidence is it doesn't help that much and it's stressful, and teachers don't enjoy marking it either.

Cocostardust

It would be nice if there was a national standard for detentions.

I have worked in schools were no homework was required from yr7s till the end of the first half term and then only core till Christmas.

The only exception to this was food tech and that was to buy ingredients for which the teacher produced a booklet with dates in, put the list online and during the first term had each of the pupils write the list down but also provided a photocopy of the ingredients required and then also provided their email address and the school contact number for any issue. (I only post this to show how above and beyond the teacher went before giving detentions).

As I have posted any uniform infringements, I sent back up to SLT for them to sort out.
And we also didn't give detentions for being late in the first half term.

Some schools, by no means all, have a demerit/merit system in place

The truth is that pupils will always have issues unless the SLT is steadfast in their polices, one of the most annoying things that you will come across is that your child will wear the same thing for months if not years and not get told off then suddenly it becomes the new focus for the SLT (I suspect because a pupil has pissed them off) and its detentions all round.

The amount of homework you are describing is too much. Please do contact the school. We had this problem a few years ago at my school - in fact the Year 7s were getting set more than KS4 years! After a few parents voiced their concerns the staff worked out a timetable, so core subjects (maths, English, science) would have weekly tasks, but others would be set on a rotation so that it is manageable for students.
I hope this helps. It is awful that there is such discrepancy between schools for things like this.

It may be a controversial view, but I wish they’d scrap homework completely.

i think it puts extra strain on pupils and teachers.

One problem is that some SLT think that homework is the be all and end all of education and will quote various stats at you about grade increases etc.

The second is that some parents also think that way and will complain to the school about too little/no homework being set in various lessons.

I find it unbelievable that DD3’s school - the comp - is SO stats based. Her school reports read like an annual report /financial statement. it’s like a project RAG report (colour coded and all)!

When she first started in Y7, she had a report giving her a predicted GCSE grades in every subject (how?) and her subsequent reports tell us how she is doing against this initial assessment.

Bonkers!

This idea isn't completely out there. Poland banned compulsory homework earlier this year.

Personally, I think it's unfair to punish kids who are naturally more disorganised or have chaotic home lives. I lost track of homework all the time as a child (and never got a detention for it). Obviously kids can and do learn to be a bit more organised, but for some people it's always going to be a struggle. Harsh punishments for it seems like punishing a personality type.

The Fischer Family Trust the bane of pupil's, teacher's and parent's lives since it was formed in 2001.

FWIW, I agree that too much homework can be counter-productive, but I strongly oppose getting rid of homework. I firmly believe that, at least for certain subjects, a reasonable amount of homework is crucial in firming up and practising certain concepts. I'm not sure how one can claim that it is not important to do at least some homework in a foreign language or in maths.

It is no coincidence that Finnish schools, typically considered among the best on the planet, give some homework - maybe less than other countries, but certainly not zero.

I also find it very concerning that the crowds who agitate against homework because they reflect inequalities tend to be those who see levelling everyone down as the way to reduce inequality. E.g. in California, whose crisis is a textbook example of how well-meaning policies can end up being counterproductive if the approach is too dogmatic. There, many of the extreme woke left (and I say this as someone who has always voted Labour!) saw that students of Asian descent were taking advanced maths classes way more than black or Hispanic students. Their solution? Get rid of advanced classes altogether! Which actually increases inequality because those who could afford it moved to private schools, which were still offering these advanced classes - crucial for being admitted at the top universities.

Lots of schools have gone batshit crazy with pathetic, authoritarian policies, relentless behaviour points and detentions for the stupidest things. I'm so sick of it. The last of my 3 is year 11 and I can't sodding wait to be out of the secondary school phase forever ( where my kids are concerned anyway). They aren't all that bad though. Lots of academies are.

@DeadbeatYoda Can you give some examples?
I think it is no coincidence that the worst offenders, when it comes to crazy authoritarian policies, are academies: academies are not accountable to the local authority and are, in fact, not accountable to anyone. Taking them to court seems to be the only option to get them to listen and to change something.

I think we have gone as a country from one extreme to the other: from failing comprehensives with no discipline and poor standards, to these authoritarian academies run by troubled, unhinged arrogant individuals, who think that they alone have found the answer to how to run a good school, and who actually take a lot of pride in acting like contrarians and in being disliked. Birbalsingh at Michaela school is probably the most extreme example, but not the only one.

At the same time, I will also admit a disturbing trend of seeing more and more parents being just too lax with their children. I hear parents complaining that little Johnny got a detention for not doing their summer homework or things like that. of course he got a detention, and rightly so. As so often in life, perspective is often lost, and it becomes a battle between extremes.

@ParentOfOne you're not wrong. Like most things, it is a multi-faceted situation. Too many actors use extreme examples to justify their one point when nothing is so black and white. However, there has been a alarming trend in authoritarian policies.

That is a lot of homework! my DD just started y7 (school is one of the best in the area) and hasn't been given much homework. There's 1 compulsory task, 1 optional task and 1 recurring task (taking in home ec ingredients).

@Newbutoldfather
"I teach my children resilience"

I wonder how this will feed into their adult years. Yes, school settings and adult settings are different, of course, no doubt about that, but what remains the same is that petty capricious rules can often be a red flag.

If your daughter interviews for a non-client facing role, where there are no formal uniforms but women are expected to wear skirts and lipstick, would you tell her to suck it up because you taught her resilience, or would you tell her to be careful because it might be a red flag?

If your daughter or son works in a role where their manager constantly belittle and bully all team members, would you tell them this abuse is unacceptable, or would you tell them to suck it up because you taught them resilience and, well, after all no one is complaining and the manager is more experienced and knows best, so what's the big deal?

You might think I am exaggerating, but a young person who has been beaten into submission and who was taught to switch off their brain and suck up whatever higher authorities come up with without ever questioning anything won't automatically develop on their own the critical thinking required to recognise those red flags and to stand up to bullying and improper behaviour.

Again, it beggars belief how so many people in this country seem to think there can be no balance between a failing unruly comprehensive and an authoritarian nightmare like Micaela school.

@DeadbeatYoda
On academies and the lack of accountability: a few years ago there was a BBC Panorama documentary. Of course not all academies are this bad, we cannot generalise, but we can point out that the academies are so independent they are virtually unaccountable, and the lack of accountability increases the risk of improper behaviour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bk5q99

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/education/sorry-stop-filming-horrifying-panorama-clip-resurfaces-amid-crumbling-schools-scandal-367354/

@ParentOfOne ,

You kind of ruin your argument by always making things black and white, when they aren’t, and using the phrase ‘beaten into submission’ when talking about accepting the occasional unfair detention or telling off by a short tempered teacher.

If you can’t shrug the odd setback off, fair or unfair, that is a real problem. You can’t make life all about you or your children and challenge every tiny impediment they come across.

People are becoming less able to manage normal life, come into work on time even if they haven’t slept well, deal with a moody boss, rub along with people they don’t really like etc etc. Life isn’t always going to be fluffiness and unicorns and a part of parenting is giving young people the tools to deal with this.

But that doesn’t involve any beating or not challenging egregious unfairness on their behalf. It is that popular graph of ‘rusted out’ (insufficient challenge) vs burnt out (too much challenge). The idea is to target the happy middle.

It might be a good idea to start fighting back a little? If your DD spent an hour on a 10-minute h/w and still received a detention for it, perhaps it's time to request a meeting with the teacher and ask why this problem has arisen. It could simply be poor communication.

@Newbutoldfather
You completely misunderstand. Which is hardly surprising, given you thought I wanted school girls to wear the same skirts as their teachers, whereas all I had said was that it is insane to give a detention for wearing a cheaper Asda skirt which is 99.9% identical to the one provided by the official school supplier.

"You kind of ruin your argument by always making things black and white"
Where would I have done that? I have said loud and clear that I am all for discipline and hard work, and that I totally support punishments and detentions for disruptive behaviour, not doing homework, etc.

If you can’t shrug the odd setback off, fair or unfair, that is a real problem
Again, you completely misunderstand. You seem to imply that I want to raise hell at the slightest thing I may disagree with. No. I won't get into specifics, but there has been a specific situation where one of my child's friend was treated unfairly by the school, and we had to explain that sometimes life can be unfair, that it is hard to get everything we want, that sometimes we must accept something we don't like because, in the great scheme of things, other options are even worse. Not sure how much she understood at such a young age, but we'll certainly reiterate the concept as she grows older.

But that doesn’t involve any beating or not challenging egregious unfairness on their behalf.
And what would be your definition of egregious unfairness, then? You seem to be happy for a school to decide the layers of clothing and the maximum approved level of warmth outside school premises, which I honestly find shocking...

I would like my child to grow and develop into a mature young adult who has learnt to apply critical thinking, to understand that we can't get all that we want but at the same time there is a threshold beyond which we must stand up and challenge what is nonsensical and unfair. Telling them that it's normal for a headteacher to decree the maximum level of acceptable warmth of their clothes will, I suspect, not achieve that.

PS This article on the rise of authoritarian schools is interesting:
https://thelead.uk/rise-authoritarian-schools

"“I have one boy who left [college] in year 7… he was generally a really well-behaved child, but he was being sent to reflection on a daily basis because of fidgeting or looking in a different direction,” says Nurton, adding that he has all the calling cards of ADHD."
[...]
You are not ‘creating respect’, you’re not teaching children how to work in society, you're saying: ‘You will do well and if you do not you will be punished,’ [while at the same time] modelling how to treat other people.”
Andy West, a teacher at The Philosophy Foundation (and a contributor to The Lead) agrees that the behavioural policies rely on “isolation, stigma and humiliation, and if you don't learn from that then ‘goodbye’.”
[...]
But, asks Dr Diane Reay, Professor of Education at Cambridge University and author of ‘The slide to authoritarianism in English schools’, is it really true that we must treat poorer children as Pavlov’s dogs in order to ‘get the best out of them’? Or are these harsh disciplinary measures a symptom of the belief that authoritarianism is the most effective way to “inculcate the right attitudes and qualities in working-class pupils.”

Plus there is the issue of the lack of democratic accountability.
These academies get funding from the state but are virtually unaccountable to anyone.

I would like to read this study https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/lwish/forum/2022/00000064/00000003/art00013;jsessionid=1h8coolpid918.x-ic-live-03 but I do not have access

Why? So they can lie about it? A teacher is not likely to admit to saying something like that are they.