how common are detentions at secondary?

[Cocostardust]

I know this sounds like a bit of a how long is a piece of string question but I just want a vague idea of how this works.

my daughter has just started at Secondary school. She’s a really well behaved girl, genuinely very sweet and never been in any trouble.

they had a 2 week grace period where they didn’t get detention then on 16th (the day they started) she came home with one straight away. It was for misunderstanding her homework and doing it slightly wrong. She’d spent an hour of the allotted ‘10 minutes’ on it and tried so bloody hard. She was in floods of tears when she came home.

tuesday her friend got one for helping another year 7 yo class who’d got lost then today her best friend got one for forgetting to put her name on her homework. They made her stay and redo the homework even though it had already been done, she ended up not having time to have lunch so went the day without eating, is this normal for schools?

The reason I’m writing is firstly this all seems crazy to me. Of course the schools should be allowed to discipline the children but for forgetting to put their name on the sheet and misunderstanding something?? Surely the teachers should be having a quick chat with the children so they can explain themselves but they’re just handing out detentions like they’re sweets with a total disregard to how much this is affecting the children.

The meaning of detention has clearly changed a lot in 30 years and while I can accept that it doesn’t mean I can force my daughter to.

she has a nervous tic which over the past week has gone through the roof, we were at the point where she had almost got rid of it. She’s also struggling with the insane amount of homework they’re all getting.

as I said I understand they have to be disciplined but shouldn’t that be for when they’ve genuinely done something wrong? It feels like the school don’t give a damn about the kids and how they’re coping.

on a side note they went from outstanding to required improvement over the summer and part of me is wondering if it’s always been like this or if they’ve been told to crack down.

curious about what other think

Our school generally says 5 minors (one off or low level issues) before a detention is issued. They can however get an instant detention if they are seen with a phone on school grounds at any time, except after 4:30pm.

I’m a teacher and have 3 DC. This is unacceptable. What’s it actually teaching children? None of my DC ever had a detention and in the 20 years I’ve been at my school I reckon I’ve given fewer than 10. It makes me sad for those Year 6s starting school. I wouldn’t send my DC to a school like that. The homework example is particularly shocking - misunderstanding is not a crime.

They start off being strict and handing out detentions by the book to set the standard. I know it's awful to get one for minor things, especially homework. You will soon find teachers find it impossible to keep on top of every piece of homework as the term goes on and detentions are for persistent offenders and behaviour. We soon get to know the students, please don't worry. Xx

@Beautifulweeds Which school are you talking about? This certainly doesn't apply to all schools. I posted a few clear examples where this isn't true: the nutjob who bans bicycles, detentions for an Asda skirt which was identical, coats confiscated in the courtyard by teachers wearing coats, etc

Yes, there are certain Academies which do this, and the reason is to set a high standard of expectation before they enter as otherwise many students would come in chewing gum, hide behind their coats/hoods, feel in control I guess. These places are strict with staff as well, they have a dress code and can be reprimanded of not wearing a smart jacket walking down the corridor etc.

I agree it's harsh and it's the high ups who make the rules.

@Beautifulweeds Are you a parent or teacher at one of these schools? What you say may apply to some schools, but most certainly not to all, so please do not generalise - thank you.

Did you read the examples I made?

A nutjob in London bans bicycles and will give detention to children caught riding to school. On what planet is it the head's job to determine if it is safe to cycle? how does this set a high standard of what? https://road.cc/content/news/s-london-school-bans-knives-guns-drugs-and-bicycles-286243

In Manchester a fruitcake gave a detention to a girl for wearing the cheaper, identical version of the uniform skirt, but bought from Asda. How does this set a standard of what? https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/school-under-fire-putting-child-27711558 Open the link and compare the image: 99% identical

In Cheshire they confiscate coats not bought from the official supplier - even in the freezing winter https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/parenting/children-freezing-after-school-confiscates-22733715

In Stoke teachers wearing coats confiscate the coats of children because they are not supposed to wear any coat in the school, not even in the courtyard https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/school-bans-freezing-pupils-wearing-6485510

Can you please comment on these incidents? Do they set a high standard of what and why?

Do they instil discipline?

Or do they just convey the message that repressed headteachers who didn't get enough love from their mummies can take it out on poor pupils, getting off on exercising this kind of petty and capricious authority?

To be clear, I am all for discipline and hard work. I don't want a school that gives homework once a month, that doesn't take action if pupils go on extended holidays during term; I absolutely support punishment and detention for not doing homework, for misbehaving, etc.

But these cases? Please, please, do tell me what you think of these headteachers and these policies, and how you would react if your child were subject to the capricious rules of one of these nutjobs.

It is also a matter of accountability. It is no coincidence that many of these incidents happen at academies, which are not accountable to the councils. Who are they accountable to, exactly? Is there a way to get them to listen, other than taking them to court?

And don't talk to me about choice - we as taxpayers do not have the choice not to fund these schools, so who are they accountable to and how?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves this is so sad 😢

@MrsHamlet if my daughter misses her name off of her homework it’s not because ‘she can’t be arsed’, they aren’t doing it deliberately. Has it occurred to you to consider them rather than yourself and how they’re actually feeling? If my daughter misses her name off of a piece of homework which has taken her over an hour then trust me it isn’t to piss you off, or to be your 10 second inconvenience of calling out a name to check, it’s because she’s struggling with the insane amount of homework she’s getting alongside the constant threat of a detention for simply existing as well as a totally new environment and routine. You don’t sound like you have even the slightest amount of compassion for your students. I don’t understand why you would want to work in this profession?

As I posted up thread its not just ten seconds,

As for you last sentence. Its totally uncalled for and reduces any credibility that you have.

My DD has had loads of detentions but it's different then my day because back then they were for pretty bad things and would always be an hour.

DD's school has a staging system where can range from 15 minute detention to longer depending on the reason.

Some of the reasons for her detentions have been :

I forgot to put sticky back on her textbooks

Forgot a pen

Spoke in the corridor (children not allowed to speak when walking through the school corridors)

Some she has got have been fully deserved though

You have no idea about me or why I continue in my profession.

But when I teach upwards of 100 students a day, across various year groups and classrooms, and when I'm expected to refer to their target grades when I mark their work, it is more than a little unhelpful to sit down at home to do my marking and then discover that several of every class have not written their name on their work.

Oddly enough, I'm not a mind reader.

It's often not up to the teacher, if they school has a policy then you have to toe the line.

When I was doing my PGCE on one placement we were told to give a detention if a child did not have a pen. Another student asked, I thought perfectly reasonably, what if the child arrived a with a pen and then it ran out. She was told to give a detention.

Personally I like the 'consequences' a few schools have.

C1 - your name goes on the board
C2 - name gets ticked
C3 - detention that day if in the morning, or the following day if it is in the afternoon

Also detention to complete work that has not been done / handed in. The subject teacher organises that and is available to help if the work was not understood.

A child can get a C1 and C2 in every class and start with a clean sheet in the next class.

OP

Under the C system your DD would have got a detention but in reality it is 30 mins of completing the work with a 1-1 with the subject tutor.

As for names on homework, if it is hand written then get children in to the habit of writing their name on every sheet.

If it is word processed set up a header that will put the name and class and date automatically. Or you can get a name stamp for about £10.

What a mental world we live in where it’s now considered worthwhile and acceptable to punish a kid because their pen ran out. As if anyone would put up with this sort of bullshit in the workplace 😂

I know. But I wasn't in a position to challenge. I always had this in my teaching folder.

I woke myself up
Because we ain't got an alarm clock
Dug in the dirty clothes basket,
Cause ain't nobody washed my uniform
Brushed my hair and teeth in the dark,
Cause the lights ain't on
Even got my baby sister ready,
Cause my mama wasn't home.
Got us both to school on time,
To eat us a good breakfast.
Then when I got to class the teacher fussed
Cause I ain't got no pencil.

By Joshua T. Dickerson

@sashh unfortunately it’s entirely up to the teachers at this school. Some of the other teachers have been quite open and admitted they aren’t happy with the way many of the detentions are being handed out. It’s a real shame. She loves the name stamp idea, it’s a fun way to encourage them to pop their names on their homework once it’s done.

@arinya ,

You are kind of right but it is more nuanced than that.

I was told by my HOD that I needed to give more organisation detentions which I never did. Then he forgot his pen and asked to borrow one of mine, which of course I lent him. I couldn’t help ask him whether he should get an organisation detention, though!

But, there are kids who forget their pens because they are stressed and genuinely disorganised, who need help. And then there are kids who don’t want to work and enjoy wasting everyone’s time by loudly asking to borrow things. This is where a good teacher can exercise judgment.

In reality, though, schools are harsh compared to adult workplaces only in some ways. Adukts wouldn’t just get detentions for regularly being late for important meetings, failing to complete important work to deadline etc. They would be put into a capability procedure and ultimately sacked. So I am not sure comparing schools to offices is helpful (I worked in finance for many years before I taught so I know how adult environments work, unlike quite a few teachers).

I do think using the word ‘detention’ to cover both behaviour and organisation/lack of work can be unhelpful to both students’ and parental attitudes to school. If a teacher asks a child to stay behind and finish homework in detention, they are ultimately getting free tutoring which the teacher isn’t paid any extra for. It is sad that teachers often get complaints rather than gratitude for this.

But, it is about balance. Good schools are quite strict but everyone knows that this is ultimately for the benefit of the community and not about punishment or power plays. No one learns well if they are scared and unhappy.

(I also was myself educated in the old private school system, where everyone went to senior school in Year 9. I actually think that worked well. I do think KS3 teaching is very different to KS4 and KS5 in that you need to think much more about child development and what they are emotionally and cognitively ready for, rather than applying blanket school policy).

@Newbutoldfather
"Good schools are quite strict but everyone knows that this is ultimately for the benefit of the community and not about punishment or power plays."

This applies to some schools but not to all. Did you read the examples I made just a few posts above? Tell me how it is not a power play to give detentions to students caught riding a bicycle to school. Or teachers wearing coats confiscating students' coats because the head has decided that students shouldn't wear any coats in the courtyard - while teachers do! Or giving detention to a girl for wearing the 99.9% identical but cheaper Asda skirt. Please, please, do tell me.

Please remember that roles where you exercise authority over other people will always attract repressed nutjobs who get off on that authority. That's why police forces use psychological evaluations - which no headteacher has to go through!!

I am all for discipline and hard work, but that is not discipline.

A few decades ago we would have had a similar conversation on corporal punishment, with repressed nutjob headteachers claiming that they know best and that corporal punishments are necessary. Miss Trunchbull in Matilda.

"If a teacher asks a child to stay behind and finish homework in detention, they are ultimately getting free tutoring which the teacher isn’t paid any extra for."
If they are getting extra time with the teachers, yes. Maybe this happens in some schools, but not all. Ashcroft in Putney, the school which bans bicycles, forces students who miss lessons to catch up. Sounds great, right? Except they actually lock students in a room with no teaching staff.

"Adukts wouldn’t just get detentions for regularly being late for important meetings, failing to complete important work to deadline etc"
Adults would ultimately get sacked for not doing their job. But the extreme petty punishments I described would be akin to bullying in the workplace. Would you want to work for a boss who decides that you cannot wear a coat while he does, who withholds your pay if you are sick, who decides how you should or should not travel to work, etc?

@ParentOfOne ,

‘This applies to some schools but not to all. Did you read the examples I made just a few posts above? Tell me how it is not a power play to give detentions to students caught riding a bicycle.’

I never said I agreed with stupid petty punishments. Did you read my posts?

‘Or teachers wearing coats confiscating students' coats because the head has decided that students shouldn't wear any coats in the courtyard - while teachers do! Or giving detention to a girl for wearing the 99.9% identical but cheaper Asda skirt. Please, please, do tell me.’

This is a tricky one and where many get it wrong. Teachers may work in a school but they aren’t pupils! I often used to finish my coffee in class, which wasn’t ideal, but I was helping pupils in break or preparing the lesson. Obviously I couldn’t let pupils do that, but it didn’t interfere with my work. Would you prefer it if teachers wore school uniform?!

I recently lived very close to Ashcroft. I find that kind of school dreadful and would neither consider working there or sending my children. But it is surprisingly popular and does get good results. Not my taste and some of the stories I heard about it were horrific. But it remains oversubscribed.

@Newbutoldfather
"I never said I agreed with stupid petty punishments. Did you read my posts?"
You said it wasn't about power plays. I may have misunderstood. It seems you are now saying that some strict rules are excessive and may, in fact, be power plays?

Would you prefer it if teachers wore school uniform?!
No, but I would prefer some consistency and common sense.
There is no logic whatsoever in deciding that students must not wear any coats in the courtyard, ever, while teachers do!!

There is no logic whatsoever in being forced to wear the winter uniform because you must wait for the headteacher to decree, in their infinite wisdom, whether it is warm enough to take your jacket off - while teachers are all wearing short sleeves. Can you imagine a workplace where you must come with a jumper and wait for the boss to rule that you can take it off???

"But it is surprisingly popular and does get good results. Not my taste and some of the stories I heard about it were horrific. But it remains oversubscribed."
The fact that it is oversubscribed is completely irrelevant. It is a secondary school in densely populated inner London. Almost all schools in these areas are oversubscribed - only the really awful ones aren't.

Yes, it gets good results. But this is not the only way to achieve good results.I'm sure that a school which hypothetically flogged students would get good discipline and good results, it doesn't mean that's the way to do it. I think we agree, as we both consider it dreadful

I think it varies a great deal. My three girls are at two different schools.

DD1 and 2's school only really give detentions for behaviour and code of conduct issues and for persistently breaking the uniform policy.

DD3's school is - in my view - ridiculously strict. The pupils' bags are searched each morning and if the kids have so much as forgotten their planners, it's an immediate detention.

The examples OP has given seem very harsh.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘There is no logic whatsoever in deciding that students must not wear any coats in the courtyard, ever, while teachers do!!
There is no logic whatsoever in being forced to wear the winter uniform because you must wait for the headteacher to decree, in their infinite wisdom, whether it is warm enough to take your jacket off - while teachers are all wearing short sleeves. Can you imagine a workplace where you must come with a jumper and wait for the boss to rule that you can take it off???’

It may (or may not) surprise you that teachers have the uniform conversation all the time, and there isn’t one view on it. The thing is that uniform has to be uniform, otherwise it isn’t uniform! Now, some don’t believe in uniform at all, others are passionate about it. The research is mixed. As to me, personally, I think the rougher the school, the stricter uniform rules need to be.

Now, in general, I agree that pupils should be comfortable and neither shivering or sweating. But, if you make it a total free for all, you have now idea how disruptive performative taking on and off of sweaters and putting them at the back of the room can be!

Again, a rule plus good teachers are the best solution. They will see pupils are cold and give them an opportunity to put sweaters on and vice versa.

(in my first work place, 1980s dealing room (no aircon) we had to wear suit and tie. But if it got really hot we were given dispensation to remove the tie).

‘The fact that it is oversubscribed is completely irrelevant. It is a secondary school in densely populated inner London. Almost all schools in these areas are oversubscribed - only the really awful ones aren't.
Yes, it gets good results. But this is not the only way to achieve good results.I'm sure that a school which hypothetically flogged students would get good discipline and good results, it doesn't mean that's the way to do it. I think we agree, as we both consider it dreadful’

You have chosen a school and an area I know really well! It is oversubscribed on a 1st choice basis, not by default. I know 2 parents who ‘really liked it’ and tried to persuade us to consider it. They thought it would suit their children. There are plenty of other good options in the area including St Cecilias.

So it is horses for courses. Not for you or me, but seems to work for some.

@Newbutoldfather
"Now, some don’t believe in uniform at all, others are passionate about it. The research is mixed. As to me, personally, I think the rougher the school, the stricter uniform rules need to be."

The research is inconclusive. Which means that there is no clear indication that uniforms have a positive impact on behaviour and academic performance. Which means that headteachers who sell it as an evidence-based conclusion are speaking bull.
The Sutton trust has always been adamant on this: https://www.suttontrust.com/news-opinion/all-news-opinion/smaller-classes-uniforms-primary-homework-among-least-effective-ways-boosting-school-performance/

https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/school-uniform-good-or-bad-thing

Again: a few decades ago we were having similar conversations about corporal punishments, with headteachers convinced that they knew best and that corporal punishments were necessary. We now know that's bull

I am fine with uniforms, if the policy is reasonable. Waiting for the head to decree if it's warm enough to take your jacket off is not reasonable. Detention for a girl wearing the 99.9% identical but cheaper Asda skirt is not reasonable. Banning trousers for girls is not reasonable. Confiscating coats in the courtyard (in the winter, while teachers wear them) because a nutjob has decided they are not necessary is not reasonable.

"if you make it a total free for all, you have now idea how disruptive performative taking on and off of sweaters and putting them at the back of the room can be!"
There are alternatives between the excesses I have described and making it a free for all. A child taking their blazer off or putting it on is not disruptive. A child doing it 10 times to be annoying is. That's where a teacher's judgement comes in.
Come on, how do you think the rest of the world manages, where no uniforms are used and no headteacher would ever think of regulating whether it is hot enough to remove an item of clothing???

Surely there isn't something so unique about British culture whereby we are one of the few people whose children cannot function in a school unless a headteacher decides for them how many layers of clothing are appropriate in the current temperature???

I often wear rolled up shirts and have a mini fan on in the office while colleagues near me are wearing light down jackets. Yet the workplace hasn't yet collapsed because of this. These thigs are subjective, and there can in fact be a big difference in how men and women perceive the same temperature.

ParentOfOne

"Good schools are quite strict but everyone knows that this is ultimately for the benefit of the community and not about punishment or power plays."
This applies to some schools but not to all. Did you read the examples I made just a few posts above? Tell me how it is not a power play to give detentions to students caught riding a bicycle to school. Or teachers wearing coats confiscating students' coats because the head has decided that students shouldn't wear any coats in the courtyard - while teachers do! Or giving detention to a girl for wearing the 99.9% identical but cheaper Asda skirt. Please, please, do tell me

I agree that the last two are petty and my response as a teacher was to pass these back up to the SLT.
Its their rule they can spend the time dealing with it.

As for the banning of bikes, it depends on the reason why.
We banned scooters. this was because the pupils were performing tricks on the way to school and putting themselves in danger. If it had been one pupil then that person would have been banned but there were so many that if we hadn't banned them there would have been a accident.

@ParentOfOne ,

I am not going to die on the hill of having a school uniform, as I don’t think, in the scheme of things, it makes a lot of difference compared to other factors/interventions. But, if a school does have it, it needs to enforce it. Otherwise it is meaningless.

‘There are alternatives between the excesses I have described and making it a free for all. A child taking their blazer off or putting it on is not disruptive. A child doing it 10 times to be annoying is. That's where a teacher's judgement comes in.
Come on, how do you think the rest of the world manages, where no uniforms are used and no headteacher would ever think of regulating whether it is hot enough to remove an item of clothing???
Surely there isn't something so unique about British culture whereby we are one of the few people whose children cannot function in a school unless a headteacher decides for them how many layers of clothing are appropriate in the current temperature???’

Well, your first statement agrees with my previous post and, to allow a teacher discretion, you need to have a rule. If not the teacher will be challenged when, after the 8th clothing change, they are told to stop it.

We, and a few other countries, do have some pretty appalling parenting! Across the vast majority of the world, young people are brought up to respect adults and, especially, teachers. Here, if a child is given a detention for rudeness, rather than the parent being shocked and angry with the child, the school will probably get a letter challenging the teacher’s version and saying their child won’t do the detention (luckily, SLT are normally pretty good at making sure it doesn’t go too far).

‘I am fine with uniforms, if the policy is reasonable. Waiting for the head to decree if it's warm enough to take your jacket off is not reasonable. Detention for a girl wearing the 99.9% identical but cheaper Asda skirt is not reasonable. Banning trousers for girls is not reasonable. Confiscating coats in the courtyard (in the winter, while teachers wear them) because a nutjob has decided they are not necessary is not reasonable.’

Again, here, you are making the mistake (which really annoys me, I must admit) of thinking that teachers are at school, so they should obey the same rules as the pupils. They are adult post graduate professionals and have earned the right to behave as such. This is a conversation I often had with my classes. Teachers and pupils should have mutual respect, but it is not symmetric. I wouldn’t expect a pupil to question me if I am two minutes late for a lesson (for legitimate reasons) but I have every right to question a pupil. But, equally, I gave far more support to pupils than I would ever expect in return. Mutual respect but not equal!

‘I often wear rolled up shirts and have a mini fan on in the office while colleagues near me are wearing light down jackets. Yet the workplace hasn't yet collapsed because of this. These thigs are subjective, and there can in fact be a big difference in how men and women perceive the same temperature.’

Again, you are making the mistake of comparing a professional adult environment to a classroom. Try teaching a class of 30 and, if you act like a friendly adult colleague, you will get eaten alive (yes, a good teacher can build towards that type of relationship, but it takes time and experience)..

I don’t want to go down the route of defending strictness as I was actually the opposite of that in my teaching. But I had the luxury of some grey hairs and 20 years of professional experience before I got into teaching.

But, if you talk to pupils, you would often be surprised how strict their favourite teachers are. Because they know the boundaries and know that the teachers care about them.

(And, yes, there are some horrid bullying teachers but the ‘nice’ lazy ones who suddenly snap are often the worst of them.)

@FrippEnos
"As for the banning of bikes, it depends on the reason why.
We banned scooters. this was because the pupils were performing tricks on the way to school and putting themselves in danger"

Fair point. What you describe is fact-based and evidence-based policy. The Ashcroft policy is not. As this local press article reports https://road.cc/content/news/s-london-school-bans-knives-guns-drugs-and-bicycles-286243 they had decided to ban bicycles before even building the current school, and are not open to reviewing their policy, ever. This is dogma, not evidence based policy

the effective ban on students cycling goes back more than a decade earlier, with Councillor Rigby tracking down a report regarding redevelopment of the school site(link is external), which at the time went by the name ADT College, laid before Wandsworth Council’s Planning Applications Committee in September 2005.

@Newbutoldfather
"Well, your first statement agrees with my previous post and, to allow a teacher discretion, you need to have a rule. If not the teacher will be challenged when, after the 8th clothing change, they are told to stop it."
Precisely. The rule can be as simple as saying that children can decide for themselves whether to take their blazer off, but they will be punished if they are disruptive. Again, the rest of the world does not regulate by headteacher's decree how many layers of clothing are warranted in today's temperature - why should we?

Again, here, you are making the mistake (which really annoys me, I must admit) of thinking that teachers are at school, so they should obey the same rules as the pupils.

??????? Where on earth would I have said or implied that???

You are making the mistake, which really annoys me,I must admit, of failing to comprehend that there is no logical rationale for confiscating children's coats in the freezing winter. It is one thing to say that teachers can wear items of clothing which students can't (something I have never questioned). And quite another to say that, if it is so objectively cold that even teachers are wearing coats, it is not for a headteacher to decree and rule that, no, it's not cold enough for students to wear coats in the courtyard, and that they can wear their coats only outside school.

"Try teaching a class of 30 and, if you act like a friendly adult colleague,"
Again, there is a balance.
Again, I am all for discipline and rules, I am all for punishing pupils who misbehave and are disruptive. But the examples which I mentioned are not about discipline, they were petty capricious needless rules

(And, yes, there are some horrid bullying teachers but the ‘nice’ lazy ones who suddenly snap are often the worst of them.)
??? Why do so many people in this country seem to think there can be no balance between Birbalsingh-like schools and schools where pupils can swear before their teachers with no consequences? There is a whole spectrum. You don't need to ban bicycles confiscate coats in the winter etc to have discipline.

I couldn't have been clearer that I am all for discipline and respect, for having clear rules, for having homework, for punishing students who misbehave disrupt don't do their homework etc. I am absolutely not for the "teacher is my best buddy" kind of approach, far from it.

But, for the last time, there must be a balance.