how common are detentions at secondary?

[Cocostardust]

I know this sounds like a bit of a how long is a piece of string question but I just want a vague idea of how this works.

my daughter has just started at Secondary school. She’s a really well behaved girl, genuinely very sweet and never been in any trouble.

they had a 2 week grace period where they didn’t get detention then on 16th (the day they started) she came home with one straight away. It was for misunderstanding her homework and doing it slightly wrong. She’d spent an hour of the allotted ‘10 minutes’ on it and tried so bloody hard. She was in floods of tears when she came home.

tuesday her friend got one for helping another year 7 yo class who’d got lost then today her best friend got one for forgetting to put her name on her homework. They made her stay and redo the homework even though it had already been done, she ended up not having time to have lunch so went the day without eating, is this normal for schools?

The reason I’m writing is firstly this all seems crazy to me. Of course the schools should be allowed to discipline the children but for forgetting to put their name on the sheet and misunderstanding something?? Surely the teachers should be having a quick chat with the children so they can explain themselves but they’re just handing out detentions like they’re sweets with a total disregard to how much this is affecting the children.

The meaning of detention has clearly changed a lot in 30 years and while I can accept that it doesn’t mean I can force my daughter to.

she has a nervous tic which over the past week has gone through the roof, we were at the point where she had almost got rid of it. She’s also struggling with the insane amount of homework they’re all getting.

as I said I understand they have to be disciplined but shouldn’t that be for when they’ve genuinely done something wrong? It feels like the school don’t give a damn about the kids and how they’re coping.

on a side note they went from outstanding to required improvement over the summer and part of me is wondering if it’s always been like this or if they’ve been told to crack down.

curious about what other think

and what if the teacher didn’t have a point? Did you ever concede?

also, if we’re giving teachers the benefit of the doubt that they’re human and make mistakes, why are we expecting children to be better than their ‘responsible adults’?

@Newbutoldfather I am still waiting for an explanation why being strict and punishing lateness, mobile phones, disruptive behaviour etc isn't enough, and why it would be necessary to go to the extremes of banning bicycles, giving detentions for period pain, prohibiting pupils from wearing warmer clothes, forcing them to talk standing up with their arms crossed (which they should unlearn after graduation), etc.

I shall also be looking forward to the scientific literature of the psychology and education experts who have studied why being strict isn't enough and why we need these extremes.

If the answer continues to be a deafening silence, I might even conclude that you have no answer at all. But I'm sure that's not the case.

Thank you.

@ParentOfOne ,

You seem to think that you have every right to quiz me, but don’t want to answer any awkward questions that I ask you.

You still haven’t explained why you think it is unacceptable for a teacher to wear a coat when on duty, but confiscate coats from transitioning pupils. Care to reply?

‘I am still waiting for an explanation why being strict and punishing lateness, mobile phones, disruptive behaviour etc isn't enough, and why it would be necessary to go to the extremes of banning bicycles, giving detentions for period pain, prohibiting pupils from wearing warmer clothes, forcing them to talk standing up with their arms crossed (which they should unlearn after graduation), etc.’

Each school has a whole raft of behaviour management policies. It is incredibly easy for someone to go through them and, on a purely subjective manner, say this one is ‘too strict’ or another one ‘isn’t strict enough’. No two people or two schools will agree that somewhere else has got it 100% right.

Banning bicycles seems weird, I would disagree with it.

We have already discussed (at great length) the wearing of ‘warmer clothes’. You picked an egregiously bad example there of a wannabe music star parent putting his poor son in a blue designer puffa jacket (when the school coat was black) at 3x the price of the uniform coat. The school explained the options to create greater warmth.

Never heard of giving a detention for period pain. I would bet there is an awful lot more to that one!

And, we have also discussed Michaela Community School at length. It does seem incredibly strict but, objectively, judging both by results and pupil and parent voice, it is successful. I wouldn’t send my children there as I am fortunate enough to be wealthy and have a choice of leafy state schools or the private sector. But, if I lived in an estate in Wembley where gang violence was an issue, I would be choosing it like a shot. It offers genuine social mobility, a very rare thing these days.

I have also asked you why you feel you can expertly comment on school behaviour policy, explaining that I have had a professional career, a teaching career and been a school governor. Something else that you seem to not want to respond to.

Been teaching for 19 years. No name on work is a common occurrence. I usually hand them back and then say something along the lines of ‘if you handed it in and didn’t get it back then you must be one of the muppets who doesn’t know their own name!’ The kids come to the front and say something along the lines of ‘oops sorry miss’ and show me which one is theirs so I can write the mark in my mark book. It’s all very light hearted, the kids know ‘muppet’ is the term I use for ‘made a silly mistake that’s no big deal.’ If got irritated every time it happened I’d some most of my life irritated. I mostly teach A level these days and the 6th form are worse than the year 7’s for it!

If you are in the UK then yes it’s become normal to give detentions for petty reasons.
it’s probably because they want it to look like they are doing something and they are not able to control the badly behaved kids so they just use the good kids as bait. Speak to head of year so they know you are not in agreement with their pettiness.

@Newbutoldfather
So you do not have any answers at all? I see. Thank you for confirming.

"You still haven’t explained why you think it is unacceptable for a teacher to wear a coat when on duty, but confiscate coats from transitioning pupils. Care to reply?"

??? I have replied multiple times: it is not for the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth.

See, one of the big differences is that I can explain why I support the policies I support. You cannot.
I support punishing disruptive behaviour, because disruptive behaviour in class makes it harder for everyone to learn.
I support punishing lateness because it is important that pupils learn to stick to the rules.
I support banning mobiles because otherwise students glue themselves to the screens instead of socialising, and plenty of studies have linked this to mental health issues.

Why on earth do you think a school should ban bicycles, dictate the maximum level of acceptable warmth, force students to talk standing up with their arms crossed (a stupid, nonsensical thing they must unlearn after graduation)? Again, your answer has always been: deafening silence.

You question what right I have to question the headteachers. Well, as a parent considering schools for their children, and as a taxpayer with a brain, I have every right. Being a teacher or a headteacher does not make you an infallible expert. The mere fact that so many teachers and headteachers disagree with these methods suggests the matter is not clear cut at all. Also, in the past we would have had similar conversations with headteachers convinced that corporal punishments or boarding schools at an early age were wonderful things, whereas now we know better. So history is full of opinionated teachers who were, quite simply, wrong.

I would welcome the input of experts, who have studied the matter scientifically, but this means experts who can back up their claims, not opinionated egotistic headteachers who have strong opinions they don't feel the need to justify. This is why I asked you, when you said that many psychologists disagree with me, where I can find these studies on how punishing lateness missed homework etc isn't enough, and those extremes would instead be necessary. The answer: again, deafening silence.

It saddens me that people with zero critical skills and zero ability to question and ponder what they are told can vote. I can only hope your children will have more critical thinking skills.

"You picked an egregiously bad example there of a wannabe music star parent putting his poor son in a blue designer puffa jacket (when the school coat was black) at 3x the price of the uniform coat. The school explained the options to create greater warmth"
I agree the choice of coat was a poor one in that case, but the school never allowed students to wear additional layers. This is absurd, petty, capricious; it's a pervasive control typical of cults and dictatorships.

You say that, if you lived in an estate in Wembley, you'd send your child to Micaela. Again, like I explained, that is the wrong comparison. I myself admitted that Micaela will be better than a failing comp. That's not the question; the question is: are those extremes needed? Are the only possible alternatives a failing comp with no discipline and Micaela? The answers are, of course: no and no. It's like asking if you'd rather your child joined a gang or the military. Of course I'd say the military. But why on earth should those be the only choices?

My problem with zero tolerance behaviour policies (I'm a teacher and transition lead/SENDCo) is that there's no light and shade.

The justice system in this country has punishments of varying degrees of severity based on the crime. A detention for misunderstanding homework is ridiculous, not so much for disrupting a lesson.

The other thing I've noticed for Year 7 is that some subjects set big homeworks all the time (I'm looking at you DT) - the amount of DT homework has massively outweighed maths and English. This is plainly nonsensical and I'm about to bring it up with the deputy head.

Some schools are ridiculously strict, but I think it can be normal to get a few warnings or detention when you first start. My dd got a few warnings and a couple of detentions her first year at secondary because she would forget a folder or her homework etc. But by third term she learned and since then nothing. She has learned to be more responsible from it. She was used to her previous school, where it was fine if you forgot things or did not bring the homework. It does seem like your dd school is extremely strict and if it is making her upset or anxious, I would have a word with the school.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘So you do not have any answers at all? I see. Thank you for confirming.’

Answered all your questions. You should try actually reading my posts.

‘??? I have replied multiple times: it is not for the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth.’

I do find this quite amusing. Try teaching someone with a massive puffa jacket on in class, and maybe a scarf and gloves. I have, and they use your argument to justify why they need them (this in a classroom where I am teaching in a shirt and tie without a jacket).

Or try wearing a North Face coat to a business meeting and see what your boss says.

‘Why on earth do you think a school should ban bicycles, dictate the maximum level of acceptable warmth, force students to talk standing up with their arms crossed (a stupid, nonsensical thing they must unlearn after graduation)? Again, your answer has always been: deafening silence.’

Answered-see above.

By the way people graduate from university. They finish school.

‘You say that, if you lived in an estate in Wembley, you'd send your child to Micaela. Again, like I explained, that is the wrong comparison. I myself admitted that Micaela will be better than a failing comp. That's not the question; the question is: are those extremes needed? Are the only possible alternatives a failing comp with no discipline and Micaela? The answers are, of course: no and no. It's like asking if you'd rather your child joined a gang or the military. Of course I'd say the military. But why on earth should those be the only choices?’

Schools are package deals. If you can’t cope with the package, you are welcome to home school or set up a free school (with government funding) with like minded individuals. I have been a part of that process.

You are also welcome to become a school governor (I have) and work with the school, Schools review their behaviour management policies regularly and tweak them.

But you prefer to read biased accounts in the popular press and repeatedly write the same bland arguments.

‘It saddens me that people with zero critical skills and zero ability to question and ponder what they are told can vote. I can only hope your children will have more critical thinking skills.’

Agreed. But I don’t think we have the same person in mind!

Try teaching someone with a massive puffa jacket on in class [...]
Or try wearing a North Face coat to a business meeting and see what your boss says.

@Newbutoldfather Tell me, which is it: bad faith or poor text comprehension skills? No one ever talked about wearing huge puffy jackets indoors. It'd outdoor clothing we were talking about. Oh, and by the way, I have attended plenty of meetings, including board meetings, where some persons would take their jackets off and remain with just shirts, while others would wear a jacket with a wool or down layer underneath, as they were feeling cold. No one ever bat an eyelid.

Schools are package deals.
This doesn't mean that schools should be above the law, nor unaccountable to anyone, especially if they are funded by the State.
By your logic, could a religious group set up a school where they teach that other religions are evil? Could a pressure group set up a school where they ban people from certain countries or ethnicities? Could another group set up a school with corporal punishments? Of course not! Because these things are patently illegal and schools are not above the law. However, there needs to be a way to appeal and to hold the schools accountable which doesn't involve spending tens of thousands of pounds to take them to court.

I am also still waiting for you to share all the scientific studies you implied support these extremely harsh methods. Why have you not mentioned a single one? Surely it's not because they don't exist, right? In your own time - thank you very much.

@ParentOfOne ,

Your reading comprehension skills are shocking!

‘I have replied multiple times: it is not for the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth.’

Your words, undeniably. You did not exclude indoors, ergo you included it. So puffa jackets in the classroom, to you, are acceptable as ‘it is not up to the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth’.

‘This doesn't mean that schools should be above the law, nor unaccountable to anyone, especially if they are funded by the State.’

They aren’t. Read the Free School and Academy Handbook. A proposal to set up a school is extremely detailed, it takes months to put together, and to get funding it needs to accept a raft of standards. And it is still subject to OFSTED inspection.

You could have found that out if you did a little research.

‘I am also still waiting for you to share all the scientific studies you implied support these extremely harsh methods. Why have you not mentioned a single one? Surely it's not because they don't exist, right? In your own time - thank you very much.’

Asinine question, not worthy of an answer.

Can you imagine the title of the paper ‘Investigation of the efficacy of harsh methods in schooling’?!

One woman’s harsh is another woman’s way too soft. It is entirely subjective.

@Newbutoldfather
"You did not exclude indoors, ergo you included it."
Nice verbal gymnastics! I was questioning behaviour which happened outdoors. But, hey, do keep clutching at straws if it makes you feel better.

Asinine question, not worthy of an answer.
Can you imagine the title of the paper ‘Investigation of the efficacy of harsh methods in schooling’?!
??? I said I talked to a psychologist who explained all the damage that extreme harsh environments can cause, and how she actually treats patients who were victims of that when young.
You replied that many other psychologists disagree.
I asked you where the evidence is. You dodge the question. I ask it again. You label it 'an asinine question, not worthy of an answer'

Unfortunately mumsnet does not have a block function, but rest assured I will not waste any more time with you.

I am genuinely curious as to what homework the DT department is setting.
Could you give an example?
One school; that I worked at went through a phase of setting 5 week homework projects (actually taken from the humanities department), that were reviewed every couple of weeks. they looked massive but were designed with week 1, week 2 etc.
Of course what actually happened was that many pupils either didn't do the homework, did it at the last minute or the parents "helped" with the projects.
In the end we ditched them because of the hassle they caused at home and at school.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘Nice verbal gymnastics! I was questioning behaviour which happened outdoors. But, hey, do keep clutching at straws if it makes you feel better.’

Nope. This answer just shows you have no idea what schools or pupils are like. They will know the rules and try to push the limits.

What about a cold poorly heated classroom, coats or not?

Suffice it to say that teaching isn’t Maths, there is no perfect set of rules for all schools, all teachers etc

This is why teachers and schools are advised to become reflective practitioners (you might want to read some Schoen here).

‘Unfortunately mumsnet does not have a block function, but rest assured I will not waste any more time with you.’

Unless you are 13 years old, you don’t need a block function to ignore someone, but debating with you is like wading through treacle, so we can finally agree on something , let’s leave it alone and stop boring everyone else.

In both the schools I worked, it was the Maths department that was the issue. They saw the SLT homework guidance as a minimum amount rather than a recommended amount, and just set lots, all the time.

An example was my Physics A level set not completing the past paper I had set them over the Easter hols as the Maths department had set them 3 (!) complete past papers (about 15 hours work minimum) in addition to revision.

And they started in Year 7 setting two big preps a week, with really harsh sanctions if not completed.

Of course, with a massive amount of teaching time, and setting at least twice the recommended prep, they got good results.

I suspect other Science teachers will concur that Maths departments seem to obey different rules than the rest of the school. (And I studied mathematical Physics at uni, so I love maths). But departments need to be fair and abide by the guidelines. Parental feedback is really useful here.

@FrippEnos

The DT homework is A4 pages with annotated designs. DS1 is in Y7 and I had to help him in order to cut it down to an hour's work.

I've been teaching 20 years and, apart from maths/reading, I can't see the point of homework at KS3. Some kids will overdo it, some won't do it at all, and it just entrenches inequality.

BarkLife

The DT homework is A4 pages with annotated designs. DS1 is in Y7 and I had to help him in order to cut it down to an hour's work.

Yeah, that is far to much for year 7.
I would think that they are trying to train them in KS4 requirements.
But you have to walk before you can run.

I've been teaching 20 years and, apart from maths/reading, I can't see the point of homework at KS3. Some kids will overdo it, some won't do it at all, and it just entrenches inequality.

I am torn with KS3 homework, lots of schools force teachers to give it out and it serves no purpose. Sometimes it can be of benefit if it is relevant to the subject and extends the pupils learning.

With DT, it is often used as training for NEA, organisation and independence, which is beneficial once the pupils understand what they are doing.

@Coffeeismyfriend1 what a great outlook. It’s teachers like you the kids will remember and learn from 👌

I'm fascinated to hear this as the Maths department in my school has a similar reputation.

We have a whole school policy of not setting "next day" homeworks which the Maths department ignores because they say it's not homework, it's just "finishing work not done in class". Even the very best and brightest are not completing the tasks set in that time.

The end result is that the homeworks I set in English and give a week to complete (plus additional time in class) are not being finished because pupils are prioritising their Maths every night, as you could feasibly get a detention for three missed Maths homeworks in one week, whilst in English it could take weeks or even months to accrue hit three missed deadlines.

Having thought some more on this.
I find myself wondering if the amount of homework from what seems to be mainly maths departments is due to them being one of the few (if not only subject) that has dedicated websites where you can set homework with less effort than other subjects, it is marked automatically and is easy to see who has or hasn't done it.

Hi OP, sorry I have arrived late to this thread, ironically most detentions at my school are given for lateness both to school and lessons.
I noticed your child is at Bottisham, I attended Comberton as a student back in the day, I don't get how Bottisham are doing dentions at all! We never had them because teachers don't work at lunchtime and we had no non teaching pastoral staff. And we didn't have them after school because of the school buses home.
I'm not sure what our behaviour system was, just attending the school was punishment enough for me!

@FrippEnos ,

I think that is a part of it. Maths can mostly be marked in class or by websites, at least up to GCSE. I have to admit, with my own children’s homework, I am impressed how good some of the automatic marking is, even when the workings are partial!

But I think it is more fundamental. Most Maths teachers believe Maths is the most important subject. And with the majority of SLTs being non-mathematical (no hides why!) they don’t feel that they can gain say the Maths department.

I always told my pupils to prioritise Maths and English (and their A Level subjects) as most employers want evidence that you can both problem solve and communicate, but there is a balance to be had and Maths departments (in general) totally take the piss (to put it bluntly)!

We teach the kids more often than other subjects.

@noblegiraffe ,

Not to get into interdepartmental arguments, but how come in both Physics and Maths, according to OCR (to take an example), the qualification 120-140 learning hours, Maths gets 1.5x (at least) the contact time, and yet needs to set more homework?

Because maths actually has enough content to cover 2 GCSEs and counts as two GCSEs in the Progress 8 measure as a result. There have been lots of calls over the years to make maths two GCSEs and Labour piloted this back before 2010. Gove then came in and binned the pilot because it was a Labour project and decided that maths would be kept as one GCSE but to acknowledge the 'weight' of the qualification, said that it would count for two for accountability measures. Wales actually went the route of making maths two GCSEs (but I think they're going to revert).

The learning hours thing is a bit of a misdirection as unlike other subjects where you might be expected to teach the whole syllabus to all pupils in KS4, in maths only the very top students actually learn everything. It's more of a 12 year course than a two year one.