Maths A level without GCSE further maths?

[crikeyisthatthetimez]

My DSs GCSE results are pending & he has already picked his A levels which include maths PE and Geography. He doesn't know what he wants to do degree wise yet however I feel these would keep his options open.

Since sitting GCSE maths he's doubting the Maths A level choice without further maths. His teacher said he will do further maths GCSE in first term & feels he is capable but DS is unsure if he is. Any advice?

It's perfectly possible to do A-level without it - it used to be used to bridge the gap between GCSE and A-level but that was before the new GCSE which is more difficult. Most schools don't even offer it.

What grade is he expecting to get for maths? Has he completed summer bridging work?

it's perfectly possible to do A level without having done further at GCSE but it makes the transition a bit steeper so he'll have to work a bit harder than those who have done further GCSE in the first couple of terms.

Be aware that in maths, students typically score about 2 grades lower than their GCSE grade at A level. So someone who gets a 7 at GCSE (an A in old money) would be on course for a C. Anyone getting less than a 7 at GCSE will likely find themselves floundering and might be best to do something else.

@noblegiraffe thanks for this-he's expected to get an A grade & no bridging work has been completed I'm afraid.

Are you in Wales? I'm not familiar with their A-level but I would strongly advise that any student wanting to take A-level maths work though some bridging work this summer! You really need to hit the ground running.

It's not need DD is going into year 13 and one of her A levels is Maths. She didn't do further maths and is actually doing really well in her A-level.

@notquitetonedeaf I don't know why you say that as most schools/college take them on for A-level with a 5 in maths and that would be pointless if they would then expect most of those students to get a E at A-level.

College gave DD bridging work for all her A-level's before she started last year. She worked through all the work it did help her to hit the ground running, when they started term.

I don’t know any school that would take a student for A level maths with a Grade 5. It would be utter madness to do so.

a very few might accept a 6 but the majority ask for a 7 or even an 8.

@Comefromaway most colleges here accept with a 6 and some schools with a 5. Maybe competition for places is more difficult where you are.

@crikeyisthatthetimez if he's expecting an A in his maths GCSE, he must be in Wales, yes?

I'm in England. Very few schools do Further Maths GCSE. My DS got a 9 for GCSE Maths, and did a level 3 algebra course, which was after-school classes for 1 term, and covered less 'bridging' content than Further Maths GCSE would have done. Then he moved to a selective sixth form where he was the only one in his class not to have GCSE further maths. He's doing Maths & Further Maths A level. It was tough for the first few months, but only because the teacher skimmed some content that others had covered. Then they got beyond the GCSE work and it has been fine since then. At the end of year 12 he's on track for A* for maths and A for further maths.

So my best guess is that if your son is in a class where there are others who haven't done the FM GCSE it'll be fine. If not, it may be tougher, but do-able, so long as the pace of teaching suits him.

Have a look on the websites of other 6th forms/colleges. They might have some holiday work on them that he could use, I know my kid's school does that.

My DS2 got 8 in GCSE maths and did A level with no FM GCSE, not offered at his school. Agree a 7 or ideally an 8 at GCSE is best for A level. And yy some summer bridging work.

@crikeyisthatthetimez yes are you in Wales or why is his grade a letter? I don't know how the exams compare but if no work has been offered, I would suggest he spend the next 3 weeks doing some.

@MigGril I have never heard of a school taking students for A level maths with a 5. Someone in DS2's class had gained a 6 at GCSE and really really struggled (like, got a 0 in tests). Not sure they even completed the A level. And this was a few years ago - I believe they are even more cautious now.

A 5 in GCSE maths, while a perfectly good passing grade, indicates a lot of gaps in knowledge unless there were massive mitigating circumstances. And yes, the most likely outcome at A level is a low grade.

My subject is MFL and I would be wary of someone with a 6 at GCSE taking the A level - subjects that are linear like this will only build on the GCSE learning so if it's not there, there will be massive issues.

I am really curious to know where “here” is for you. Like which schools let students do maths A-level with a grade 5? That is plain cruel of the school as a student with a grade 5 has nowhere near the algebra needed to engage with maths A-level. Lessons will not be accessible.

Yeh the chart that @noblegiraffe often shares showing outcomes in A level maths from GCSE in 2017 shows that almost 80% of those taking it with a grade 5 got a D or below; the most common outcome with that GCSE grade was a U.

Dd's school (regular Comp, not particularly sought after) liked them to have a 7 to do A level Maths. Dd got an 8 (covid grade but she got the same in mocks etc) which ended up as an A (non covid grade) which she was happy with.
Her school didn't offer Further Maths GCSE so we didn't think about that.

Just checked and it says they require a 7 rather than they like them to have it.

If he's heading to sixth form college there will be students coming from possibly dozens of different schools and they won't all have been offered it as an option. A quick Google says 101k students took A level Maths, and 33k took AQA L2 Further Maths, in 2023. Different cohorts and you need to factor in Additional Maths but still, surely most Maths A level students won't have done L2 FM.

My only pause perhaps would be if FM is really widely offered to a large swathe of able students at his school, and he wasn't offered it. But with a prediction of an A this seems unlikely.

Ds took A level maths with just a maths GCSE ,no further maths. He got a 9 in GCSE and an A in Alevel. His highschool didn't even offer further maths at GCSE level.
I know they do now but he's in 3rd year uni so know that things could have changed over time.

DS just got an A at A-level maths. He did gcse maths (obviously) but didn't do gcse further maths.

School set some bridging work over the summer and ds found the step up less hard that he'd heard.

He did get a 9 (just) at gcse.

@MigGril on the contrary, it’s not at all competitive round here. There are two large 6th forms that take anyone who applies whatever your grade, they will find a course for you. But you need minimum grades for certain subjects.

We like our students to have done Additional/Further Maths GCSE if they want to do Further Maths A Level (but some have just the GCSE and still do very well).

The vast majority of our single Maths A Level students only have GCSE. The first half a term or so has a lot of overlap with the grade 8/9 GCSE content anyway (some of the hardest GCSE questions are harder than AS questions these days!)

Apologies I was out for a while. We are in Northern Ireland hence the grade rather than number.
Thanks for all the feedback -quite a varied response. We will see what the maths GCSE result is & go from there.

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/707601-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level-2020-2022.pdf

See page 12. With a grade 5 at GCSE, 75% of maths students will get a D or less at A level.
Schools/colleges may get funding if poorly prepared students take a subject. it may help them balance the books, or to run a subject that would otherwise be unviable. But it doesn't mean the students are going to get good grades.

DS didn't do GCSE further maths but is planning a level maths. He needs a 7 minimum, he'll probably get an 8, possibly 9. He wasn't offered further maths at school although they do it. When it was offered he was a bit behind post COVID. He's worked really hard in the last two years and has more than caught up. He's one of three in his class predicted to get higher than 7.

My son is going into year 13, he did well in GCSE maths, (grade 8), his school didn't offer further maths, but he chose to do four a-levels at college - computer science, physics, maths & further maths. Because he's doing 4 a-levels, he's had to fit two years of 'normal' a-level maths into one year & has just had his a-level result for maths which was an A*. He'll sit the other three exams next year, (physics, computer science & further maths) so it's definitely doable, - a lot of hard work & my son spends most of his days studying, but he's loving it & is really glad he chose to do it!

@whoopsididitagain7 My DD is also awaiting GCSE results next week in NI and had considered Maths A level. She is expected to get an A* (got full UMS in M4 last year and her M8 mock was at 92% raw marks) but hasn’t done FM GCSE. Her school only offer it to the top 30% in the cohort at the end of 3rd year and while she was offered it, she chose not to take it up.

Their base expectation for A level Maths is that you have achieved at least an A at GCSE, and have also done FM. If you want to go on to A level without FM at GCSE you have to get permission from your teacher.

DD spoke to her teacher about it and she was happy for DD to go ahead as he has consistently been at the A* standard and is apparently really strong in Algebra which is what matters most.

If you haven’t done FM at GCSE you have 1 additional period per week from Sept-Dec in L6th to catch up on FM material, but teacher said that once you get past Christmas of L6th you’re pretty much on a par with those who have done FM already.

In the end DD has decided against maths because the teacher just made it sound like such a slog and she felt it could take away from her other subjects which she is genuinely passionate about.