VAT and Bursary impact

[tam255]

For some parents in London on a reasonable income who can’t afford to buy in the catchment of a good/ outstanding school, sending to a private school with partial fee assistance/ bursary is the next best option.

Often these big private schools in London in fact often support the state sector, local schools in their area with use of facilities, pools, drama studios etc and are very generous indeed even with teaching staff, Saturday schools etc supporting local schools. This important fact just seems to be forgotten.

As for the student intake, in fact in London most of the private schools have more diversity than the superselective Grammar schools!! Getting a place into a superselective Grammar school for a child in London requires deep pockets. A bright child who cannot afford all the numerous tutors and mock classes etc has no chance of getting through a superselective grammar school and if you can’t afford to live in the catchment area of a good comprehensive will miss out there too.

The reality is that, if a child on a part bursary is in primary school yes, you could have an option to move to a state school at some point. However if a child on a part bursary say is in private secondary school yr 9 onwards ( where subject choices etc have been made) it’s going to be impossible to just change them to the state sector till sixth form.

Yes, there will always be millionaires and billionaires in the private schools but also a lot of parents who are covered partially with bursary’s. With all the vat added it will impact the bursaries which is sad and more importantly the support the private schools offer to the local state schools around in their catchment.

I that was what I was saying - that schools can be set up for profit but that many of the best ones , oldest, the academic ones tend to be charities - the ones where my children went. Merchant Taylors etc.

My disabled child’s situation is a bit different to yours - but we too entered the private school system because our local state school was completely unable to meet his needs. We tried and it failed. Too many people seem to think that parents in similar situations to us are trying to buy our disabled children an advantage. If I could have bought my child out of having a disability then I certainly would have done…. but with regard to his education, I just wanted him to get one.

there are also loads of people with kids with SEND who cannot afford to pay for private schooling even though state schools are failing their kids.

Not by borrowing, begging, asking family, selling property, taking out huge mortgages… the bulk of people in this situation cannot do anything to ameliorate their children’s position, they have no financial options.

it should not be up to individuals to prostrate themselves and stump up for independent school fees to ensure their disabled children get a fair crack of the whip.

No, of course it shouldn't be up to individuals. But if some parents of children with SEND choose to remove themselves from the state system, that leaves fewer people remaining that the state needs to cater for. It's well documented that SEN resources in state are completely overwhelmed. Same with private health - the NHS is already falling over, with people waiting months and years for appointments. The fact that some people get quicker treatment by going private may feel unfair, but it does relieve the NHS of the cost and capacity of treating all of those people.

Just to add to my post above - my son has had an EHCP (formerly Statement) and full-time 1:1 support since he was four years old. Even then we had to go private at our own cost for a few years after a disastrous experience at our village school. We moved 100 miles to a private school that we could afford more easily and which could meet his needs. In Year 6 he moved from private to a special school which was paid for by our LA. However this took a massive fight with the LA and a lot of cost on expert reports and an education lawyer. The LA argued that he’d be fine at the enormous (330 students in a year) comprehensive in the next town. The school’s senco told us that he’d have to arrive at each lesson five minutes late and leave five minutes early to avoid being crushed in the corridors, in spite of having a 1:1 with him at all times. He would also be expected to learn through the window in the classroom door if he couldn’t cope in the classroom. He wouldn’t be allowed to use the lifts because he isn’t a wheelchair user even though he had poor mobility and struggled with long flights of stairs. Etc etc etc.

I totally agree that we are very fortunate as a family that we’ve (just, with my mum’s help) been able to afford private education. It had never occurred to us previously to go down the private route though. No child should be offered what my son was offered. I’m sure others have been offered much less suitable provision than he was, and changes need to be made urgently.

When most of the private school staff live on the local council estate you'd be surprised. Unlike state, they don't just employ mostly teaching staff. Support staff also work year round for private let's etc

If you have say 70% bursary do you still pay full vat? I wonder how it's going to work in reality?

All of what you’ve said is true but it doesn’t make it right. Also the state system doesn’t suddenly get better for the SEN children left behind because a few can and choose to move private the same with the NHS… this is the problem of multi tiered system it breeds resentment and that’s not good for anyone. Something needs to be done to address this. This policy is popular outside of MN with the majority because it helps to address this resentment.

OK, and I absolutely recognise the need to massively improve state education, healthcare and social care. But, having said that, we do choose to live in an essentially capitalist country - there is a basic principle that people can use their money to buy better things - whether that's food, or housing, or care homes, or social life, or cars, or holidays. There are very few areas of life where money can't buy you a better version of something - about the only exception I can think of is emergency healthcare. I don't agree with the VAT policy because I don't think it will achieve its stated aims (ie raising net revenue and improving state schools), but where I actually have more of an issue is with people shouting very loudly about how private school is 'unfair', when they're mainly perfectly happy to accept 'unfair' in almost every other area of life.

First of all I didn’t choose to live in a capitalist country it was the like that when I was born into it.. I can’t afford to move countries and so I have little choice to put up with the system as it, until it changes, which is unlikely. Also you’re wrong in saying that people don’t call out other aspects which are unfair, the Green Party (and some independent MPs) have been doing this but sadly they don’t get much support or attention. From where I’m sitting all I’m seeing is the private school lobby actively scream and shouting about how unfair this VAT is..every other thread on the secondary school board at the minute seems to someone moaning about this policy. It really isn’t a good look and isn’t helping their cause in my opinion, especially as outside of MN this policy is fairly popular.

improving state schools

but you are aware that there are many very good state schools, aren't you?

just saying because people who send their kids to private schools seem to think that all state schools are an absolute disaster

Yes thanks. My kids went to an excellent state primary. I went to excellent state schools myself.

I think Labour are doing a good job of distracting focus from the real issue here. I think that, if state schools were uniformly good, then people wouldn't really care very much about some people using private schools (as they didn't when I was growing up). Society is generally very accepting of the fact that people can spend money as they want (on bigger houses, nicer holidays etc). The real issue is that state schools are not uniformly good - they are massively variable, leading to huge inequality within the state system.

IIf this policy was going to change that, then I would be much less bothered about it (though I still fundamentally believe that all education should remain VAT exempt, as a matter of principle). However, what Labour are actually doing is selling a Brexit style lie. They're taking an issue that people are deeply concerned about (the parlous state of some state schools) and trying to deflect that anger against private schools. The implication that taxpayers are somehow financially subsidising private schools is utterly dishonest, and Labour must know it. The 'private school tax break' and 'I care about the 93%' soundbites are 'take back control' all over again - and the 1.6bn promise is the new version of the Brexit NHS claim.

If Labour want to damage the private school sector for ideological reasons then they should have the courage to come out and own it - rather than Keir Starmer saying on record that he has 'nothing against' private schools. If not, then they need to be honest about the many real reasons for the problems within state schools, and come up with some properly funded plans to start solving them.

I think you’ll find that those at the socialist end of the spectrum have ALWAYS had a massive issue with private schooling. Your comment is wishful thinking.

@potionsmaster 👏 👏
I also went to a good state school and so nobody really cared who went state and who went private.
It does feel very Brexit-like in its disingenuity.

I agree that those on the socialist end of the spectrum have always had a problem with private schools (plus private health etc). But the difference now is that a much larger number of people who are otherwise pretty politically central or even right of centre are being manipulated into believing that private schools are both the reason for the problems with state schools and also the potential solution, and have suddenly become single-issue socialists. Again, just like Brexit: there were always Eurosceptics who hated the EU, but what Johnson and Farage managed to do was to whip up misplaced Euroscepticism among a far wider group of people by playing on people's fears and anger and very cleverly redirecting them against the wrong target.

are being manipulated into believing that private schools are both the reason for the problems with state schools

In some areas it is actually the case. But grammar schools do it even more in so called grammar counties.

Basically if top performers go private or grammar, naturally state school have worse results, less motivated kids.
But this is not the core issue. The core issue is that state schools are underfunded. Tories made massive cuts and school budgets shrank

Being manipulated? Surely that goes across the whole political spectrum across every issue. Might as well have a dictatorship if that’s how you feel about people’s relationship with politics.

I agree that a lot of the problems are about money, but there are so many factors. Low attendance, particularly post Covid. An explosion in SEN and mental health support needs in the last decade or two, which nobody seems to be able to really understand. Appalling behaviour in some schools. Endless assessment and box ticking requirements on teachers and school leaders, plus an expectation that schools and teachers will plug gaps in what really should come under social care. Inability to attract and retain teachers, which may be partly pay related but is also to do with the issues above (and I suspect also the inflexibility of teaching to wfh etc compared with other graduate level careers post Covid). An explosion in tutoring, which leads to greater inequality even within the same class in the same school. Historic running down of extra curricular provision within schools. Etc.

None of this is the new Labour government's fault. But the sum total of their plans to fix things seems to be to run universal breakfast clubs (yet more requirement on schools, and will it actually achieve much?) and recruit 6,500 new teachers (how, given they're leaving in droves?), and to fund all this by imposing a tax on a small number of people who don't use the system, and which may not raise much if any money anyway, and will have various negative impacts (on individual families forced to move, jobs in schools which close or seek to cut costs, reduction in bursaries etc).

I absolutely do see this as Labour's Brexit.

Yes, but sometimes it's particularly stark, when politicians are particularly deceitful. Brexit was one example. I think this is another.

The comparison with Brexit is pretty far fetched!

I am wondering this too. My DC was 75% bursary last year and has received 50% this year. It’s not from the school - it’s from a private bursary Trust.

They have said they can’t support from next year due to VAT. They sent me a very firm but polite email.

Same as many schools. We predicted this would happen and it seems to be pretty consistent across the sector that bursaries are being stopped/reduced.

Mmmmm yes and no.

If you pay for a private knee replacement the odds are your surgeon works for both NHS & BUPA. 3 days a week NHS, 1 day BUPA. You’re not helping the NHS by going private - all that’s happening is it’s preventing the NHS putting on another operating list as there isn’t a surgeon available, because she’s over the road coining it in, and good for her.

Anyway. We digress.

This policy is all about Labour appealing to its base. It’s the hunting bill of the Blair government. Its politics. It’s not about children or state schools. It’s putting down a marker that richer people are fair game.

Just to correct pp above, Bucks is a grammar county. There’s testing at 11 for every child and you pull out if you don’t want it. The grammars are not private schools and only a few private schools for secondary dc exist here as the market isn’t huge.Also if you can’t get into a Bucks grammar, Wycombe Abbey will not be on the agenda either. It’s also wrong to think the non grammars are poor. The vast majority are good. Some have around 30% higher achievers in them and results are pretty robust when compared to many comps.

Yes. It’s been life changing for us. Obviously we wouldn’t have sent DC to that school if we hadn’t got the (massive) bursary. When we accepted it, their letter said ‘we will never withdraw support from a child unless there is a change in parents circumstance.’

Obviously that’s now different due to VAT.